Washing before selenum toning?

jstraw · Feb 5, 2007

DJGainer said:
Yes, in my prior post I was quoting the manufacturer's suggestions, but I don't use running water in my darkroom. I fill the tray with water at the beginning, agitate for 60s and then right onto the fix for 60s. I dump the water and refill when it starts getting too yellow from the developer carry-over.

Ah, ok...I get it now. I'd be quite happy with that.

Richard Jepsen · Feb 5, 2007

I use a 60s water stop in a tray at least one size larger than the print. The water stop is replaced after one 8x10. Prints are fixed in TF-4 and placed in a water hold tray with 4 or 5 dump & fills over 2 hours print session. At the end of the session I selenium tone. Toned prints are rinsed for 5 min before placement into a 10 min HCA bath. Tray wash for 20 min. No stains.

jstraw · Feb 5, 2007

Does this procedure seem viable?:

2min - Zone VI developer
1min - water-stop
2min - TF4
2min - 3oz Selenium/61oz HCA
holding tray till wash
archival wash (procedure to be determined)

rjas · Feb 5, 2007

I use ilford rapid fix at 1+9 and fix for 2 minutes, then transfer directly to the hypoclear for 10 minutes, then into water for anywhere from 5 minutes on up, and then directly to the selenium. never had any staining problems and my selenium toner lasts months and months. i think washing your prints to completion before is a bit of a waste of time - after all selenium toner has fixer in it, why wash it all out just to put it back in and have to wash all over again?

MurrayMinchin · Feb 6, 2007

rjas said:
i think washing your prints to completion before is a bit of a waste of time - after all selenium toner has fixer in it, why wash it all out just to put it back in and have to wash all over again?

Eegad...you've opened a big-old skanky can-o-worms now

To make TF-3 I order ammonium thiosulfate in a 60% solution and it smells pretty bad, but stock solution Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner (KRST) smells so heinous it'll snap your head back, so I figure it must be richer than 50% ammonium thiosulfate...otherwise known as rapid fix. Gasps of Horror!

jstraw...giving advice on such little information (what paper, what dilution, etc, etc, etc.) the only thing I would suggest is going with a two bath fix.

Check with Photographers Formulary for how many times, and for how many square inches of paper the first fix can be used before it's discarded, and then how many times the second fix can become the first fix before you have to mix up a completely new first and second fix.

If that last paragraph is the least bit confusing, check with the Formulary and all should be explained. (Waaaay too technical for me).

Murray

rjas · Feb 6, 2007

MurrayMinchin said:
Eegad...you've opened a big-old skanky can-o-worms now

but stock solution Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner (KRST) smells so heinous it'll snap your head back,

I took a whiff of the stock solution KRST when I was topping up my working solution today and although the ammonia smell is pretty strong, it wasn't too bad compared to the terrible rotten eggs odor I get from viradon or sepia toner. makes me want to just quit and tone in photoshop and save the stink!

jstraw · Feb 6, 2007

MurrayMinchin said:
jstraw...giving advice on such little information (what paper, what dilution, etc, etc, etc.) the only thing I would suggest is going with a two bath fix.

Thanks, don't worry about the times. I was asking for feedback for the workflow.

When using a two bath fix, what is the idea behind that? Do you simply split total fixng time in half for each tray?

MurrayMinchin · Feb 6, 2007

jstraw said:
When using a two bath fix, what is the idea behind that? Do you simply split total fixng time in half for each tray?

I dug out my old copy of The Compact Photo Lab Index, published by Morgan & Morgan. On page 336 of the 1979 edition, in the Kodak section under "Archival Processing", a portion of that article states;

"Fixing Prints in a Single Bath: As successive sheets of paper are fixed in a bath of hypo, the quantity of silver in the solution builds up. When prints are fixed, a critical concentration of silver is reached after comparatively few sheets of paper have been fixed. The recommended number of 8 by 10-inch prints per gallon of solution (or the equivilant area in other sizes) is 100 for commercial processing. However, if prints with the minimum tendency to stain are required, the bath should be discarded after only thirty 8 by 10 sheets of paper per gallon have been processed. The above figures give only an approximate estimate of the condition of a fixing bath, because the amount of silver compounds added to the solution by a print depends on how much of the silver halide in the emulsion was developed to metallic silver. Obviously, less silver halide would be left in a very dark print than in a very light one.

Two-Bath Fixing: If space permits, it is always preferable to use the two-bath fixing system in print processing. This method is much more efficient and effects a considerable economy in chemicals. The prints are fixed for 3 to 5 minutes in two successive baths. The major part of the silver halide is dissolved in the first bath, and the remainder is dissolved or rendered soluble in the second bath. To operate a two-bath fixing system, follow this procedure:
1) Mix two fresh fixing baths and place them side by side.
2) Fix the prints for 3 to 5 minutes in each bath.
3) Discard the first bath when two hundred 8 by 10-inch prints per gallon of solution have been fixed.
4) Substitute the second bath for the one you have just discarded; the second bath has now become the first.
5) Mix a fresh bath and place it beside the first one.
6) Repeate the above cycle four times.
7) After 5 cycles, mix fresh chemicals in both baths.
8) If five cycles are not used in one week, mix fresh solution in each bath at the beginning of the second week."

Numbers 2 & 8 seem a bit weird to me. There's no way I'd put 200 8x10's through a gallon of fix, and they must be talking about trays in #8...but the rest makes total sense.

With regular fix the time is split between the two fixers, but because I use a rapid fix I give the full time in each bath. At this time I'm using TF-3, which can fix about 20 8x10 prints per litre, or about 80 prints per gallon. I fix for a minute in each, and never come close to fixing as many prints as they say I can. TF-4 says it's good for 30 prints per litre. That's for fibre based papers by the way.

Hope I didn't muddy the waters further!

Murray

dancqu · Feb 7, 2007

jstraw said:
When using a two bath fix, what is the idea behind that?
Do you simply split total fixng time in half for each tray?

Second question first. Do NOT split fixing time. A print is
to be entirely fixed in the first fix. The capacity of the first
fix can be VERY high. Dissolved silver levels in the first fix can
be very high. There in lies the reason for the second fix.

Only that portion of the first fix which is carried by the
print enters into the second fix. The great bulk of dissolved
silver remains in the first fix. A second fix reduces considerably
the levels of dissolved silver and residual silver in the emulsion
and paper. The name of the game is, reduce dissolved silver
to a very low level.

BTW, The Compact Photo Lab Index quotation is speaking
of the slower Sodium Thiosulfate fixer. Two hundred 8x10s
is a lot of prints. The chemistry's capacity though is even
greater than that with film or RC print procesing. With
those two higher silver levels are OK. Dan

jstraw · Feb 7, 2007

dancqu said:
Second question first. Do NOT split fixing time. A print is
to be entirely fixed in the first fix. The capacity of the first
fix can be VERY high. Dissolved silver levels in the first fix can
be very high. There in lies the reason for the second fix.

Only that portion of the first fix which is carried by the
print enters into the second fix. The great bulk of dissolved
silver remains in the first fix. A second fix reduces considerably
the levels of dissolved silver and residual silver in the emulsion
and paper. The name of the game is, reduce dissolved silver
to a very low level.

BTW, The Compact Photo Lab Index quotation is speaking
of the slower Sodium Thiosulfate fixer. Two hundred 8x10s
is a lot of prints. The chemistry's capacity though is even
greater than that with film or RC print procesing. With
those two higher silver levels are OK. Dan

I use hypo check to monitor my fixer...you know, the stuff you drip in that stays clear if the silver content is low but turns milky when the fixer is exhausted? Are you saying that I can exceed that threshhold with a two bath method?

dancqu · Feb 8, 2007

Correction

dancqu said:
Second question first. Do NOT split fixing time. A print is
to be entirely fixed in the first fix. The capacity of the first
fix can be VERY high. Dissolved silver levels in the first fix can
be very high. There in lies the reason for the second fix.

Only that portion of the first fix which is carried by the
print enters into the second fix. The great bulk of dissolved
silver remains in the first fix. A second fix reduces considerably
the levels of dissolved silver and residual silver in the emulsion
and paper. The name of the game is, reduce dissolved silver
to a very low level.

BTW, The Compact Photo Lab Index quotation is speaking
of the slower Sodium Thiosulfate fixer. Two hundred 8x10s
is a lot of prints. The chemistry's capacity though is even
greater than that with film or RC print procesing. With
those two higher silver levels are OK. Dan

First paragraph second sentence: Do NOT split fixing
time. In context that sentence makes no sense. In reality
we are talking about a two bath fix. Some time in each.
A 50-50 split of time MAY be as workable a division
as any. Probably somewhat arbitrary.

Off hand though I think a 2/3 - 1/3 split might be better.
As the first fix loads with silver and it's halide components,
chloride, bromide, and some times iodide, it becomes slower.
The second fix which is to become first fix is to be kept
quite clear of silver and those components.

The thiosulfate ion has a great affinity for silver. Literaly
the silver is yanked from it's halide components. Essentialy
a matter of so much silver, so much thiosulfate; a quantitative
relationship be it chloride, bromide, or iodide. The three
being less and less soluble in that order.

The concentration of the fixer has nothing to do with
a complete clearing of the silver. Years ago I used to think
there was some magic level of strength below which a fixer
would not work. Now days I use fixer very dilute, one-shot,
with archival results from one bath. No stop needed. Dan

dancqu · Feb 10, 2007

jstraw said:
I use hypo check to monitor my fixer...you know,
the stuff you drip in that stays clear if the silver
content is low but turns milky when the fixer is
exhausted? Are you saying that I can exceed
that threshhold with a two bath method?

Maybe maybe not. I've used that stuff, Rexton's Fix-A-Sure.
That was when all my chemistry was off-the-shelf. Since then
I've gone home-brew. Now I have a potassium iodide check of
known strength. That makes it possible to do tests along the
lines of Kodak's FT-1 test. I've no idea what levels of silver
were indicated by Rexton's iodide test. Never got around
to making a direct comparison.

The Kodak test uses a specified amount of potassium iodide
in so much solution volume. It is the ONLY fixer test I know
of so specified. Also, test results are defined.

Now this is IF. IF your fixer test shows a precipitate at a
silver level that is lower than the capacity of the first fix
then you "can exceed that threshhold ..." IIRC, two bath
fix recommendations usualy instruct that the first bath
can be used to it's stated capacity.

Check your supplier of fixer for it's capacity. IIRC, Ilford's
Rapid Fix is good for 40 8x10s/liter working strength. Be
sure to read the instructions for working two bath. Dan

jstraw · Feb 10, 2007

I'm pretty sure the drops I'm using indicate exhaustion at a threshhold far below 40 8x10s per litre. I probably am dumping perfectly good fixer. (well, not dumping but you know what I mean)

dancqu · Feb 10, 2007

jstraw said:
I'm pretty sure the drops I'm using indicate
exhaustion at a threshhold far below 40 8x10s
per litre. I probably am dumping perfectly good
fixer.

Like I said the name of the game is very low
silver levels. Like the stuff I did use, there is no
coming close to knowing how much silver is in
the fix. For long lived prints it's a good thing
that test had you "dumping" early.

If you read the Ilford fix routines you'll see that
it is the two bath routine which is much suggested.
Kodak has never suggested a one minute quick fix in
film strength fixer.

The two bath method is the standard for many because,
Great Capacity And Very Low Silver Levels. Dan

jmailand · Feb 10, 2007

jstraw said:
I wish there was such a thing as a non-acid stop bath. That water rinse runs against the grain of my new water consumtion policy.

I used TF-4 for years with just a 30-60 sec water rinse in a large tray after developing. I just agitate the tray or grab the print by the corner and swish it in the tray. I just dump the water tray after a session. Saves having to have running water since I have no running water in my darkroom. I wash my prints in the kitchen sink for about 20-25 mins. Never had any problems with fixing. I selenium tone (or other) my prints days or months after they dry. My darkroom gets too hot in the summer so thats when I usually tone my prints.

I live in the snow belt by Lake Michigan, water is literally falling out of the sky almost everyday right now though not nearly as bad as the people on Lake Erie.

James,

dancqu · Feb 12, 2007

jovo said:
... but might a certain number of
water changes suffice for paper?

I process in a rather unique way; single-tray, one-shot,
very dilute chemistry. Well not that unique. Those who use
rotary processing single-tube, one-shot, more than the usual
dilution chemistry, share much the same method.

I've found that by using very dilute fixer and a protracted
dilute hca that only one protracted still water wash is needed.
Zero stain results when tested by the HT-2 test. The HT-2
tests for residual hypo. So, no changes of water. Hard to
believe. I'll be doing some retesting for confirmation.

The fixer and hca are not off the shelf. Dan

juan · Feb 12, 2007

Dan, if you don't mind telling us, what fixer and dilution are you using?
juan

dancqu · Feb 13, 2007

juan said:
Dan, if you don't mind telling us, what
fixer and dilution are you using? juan

The test series I conducted recently was based on
sodium thiosulfate made a little alkaline by addition of
sodium bicarbonate. An easy to mix fresh fix at time of
use. The dilution is 1/16 of the usual sodium thiosulfate
anhydrous fixer formula.

I'll need to review my tests and will narrow my focus to that
formula for confirmation of results. The method is worth further
study. A single protracted still hypo clearing followed by a single
protracted still water diffusion wash will be a help. At least
for myself as I process in a somewhat unique manor. Dan

weststarflyers · Feb 13, 2007

matti
most after two fixing methods work well as long as you have fresh solutions and proper sequence. however multigrade papers (most) will tone a little or none in selenium (i mean, hue change) and graded papers will tone best depending on the developer used. papers treated in soft developers will take very long time for toning. sometimes best results are acquired by using brown toner, if hue change is desired, up to 1:63 for a short inmersion (say 2 to 3 minutes) at 38˚C (100˚F) following manufacturer's instructions. my preference is the kodak brown toner; if used, just stay away from the fumes and use it in a well ventilated place.

fotod69 · Aug 13, 2007

matti said:
Before I have always picked out dry prints, soaked them and then toned them in selenum. But now I want to be a bit more efficient and tone the prints at the same session as printing.

Would this procedure work?

During the printing:
I make a quite short fix
Transfer the print to a water tray for a minute
Transfer the print to a new water tray for storage.

After the session:
Make fresh fixer and refix all prints a second time.
Quickly wash the prints in water.
Selenum tone
Wash for 60 mins.

So, the question is: do I need a long wash before toning?

/matti

The process for selenium toning that I have found works great is as follows:
After the 2nd fix (fresh) and rinse for a few minutes in water and then into hypo clear for 10-15 minutes. I then archival wash for 90 minutes then selenium toned the washed prints and then back into the wash for another 60 minutes. I never have any staining problems and get the maximum effect in density and color from the selenium. I have used this process for several years and have had many compliments from experienced printers on the quality of my prints. Good luck.

Dennis

Hiernst · Jul 23, 2011

Revamping an old thread - as I've been reading through posts on APUG for hours now and I'm still a bit confused about viable fixing/washing/toning sequences.

I have a very large amount of prints in editions I need to make and I would like to cut the processing time down as much as possible. Currently, I have a basic set up for Ilford Fiber MGIV - Ilford Multigrade Developer, Ilfostop, Ilford Rapid Fixer and would like to included Selenium toning to the wet processing time (instead of drying and toning later), but still avoid staining.

I've read so many varying techniques for toning, but I'm wondering if after a 2 bath process using Ilford Rapid Fixer, can I transfer the prints directly to Harman Selenium Toner from the fixer? Certain instructions say I can, but these all say that the toner is to be mixed with HCA - not with water. Could I put freshly fixed prints into Harman Selenium toner mixed with water?

Some say staining is from residual silver; some say staining is from acid to alkaline. Is it one or the other? Is it both? Both the Ilford Rapid Fixer and Harman Selenium Toner contain ammonium thiosulphate, so it seems to make sense to me to try to avoid wash cycles between the two.

Any clarification would be immensely appreciated. In the next couple of weeks, I'm looking to make 40 photographs in editions of 5 - I'd like to get a good system in place from the beginning.

trexx · Jul 23, 2011

The Darkroom Cookbook, TDC 3rd edition, suggest;
After the developer
- Running Water Stop 1 min
- Fix one TF-4 1 min
- Fix two TF-4 2min
- Rinse in running water, 3 min
- Selenium Tone 5 min
- HCA /Berg Bath 5 min
- Vertical wash 30 min
- Sistan

Hiernst · Jul 26, 2011

Thanks for the response, trexx.

I'll keep that in mind for the future, but that answer doesn't help me very much in my current situation. I have enough of the Ilford chemicals to get me through this printing run and have already done quite a few test prints using them. At this point, I'd prefer not to start from scratch all over again with an entirely different set of chemicals.

Anyone have any suggestions to my above inquiry? This is my desperate attempt to get a hard confirmation about my selenium toning questions before I start printing and potentially ruining prints.

MattKing · Jul 26, 2011

Referring to Tim Rudman's "The Photographer's Toning Book", Dr. Rudman discusses two approaches.

One point of observation though - each of the processes involves using a hypo-clearing agent/wash aid in one or more occasions.

He also recommends two bath fixing, because selenium staining can arise from two potential sources:

1) inadequate fixing; and
2) print surfaces being acidic when placed in the selenium toner.

The acidic condition can be avoided by ensuring "the prints are thoroughly washed, or preferably treated with hypo-clearing agent - which is alkaline" (quotation from page 46).

The approaches:

1) fixer, selenium toner diluted with hypo clearing agent (1 + 10 through 1 + 20 dilutions), full wash - this involves no intermediate wash, but the life of the selenium toner is limited by the severely limited life of the hypo clearing agent used for dilution; or
2) fixer, hypo-clearing agent, full wash, selenium toner diluted with water (1 + 20 dilution), hypo-clearing agent again, full wash again.

For the second approach, the prints can be dried after the first wash and then toned at a subsequent occasion - exactly what you are trying to avoid.

The dilutions indicated are directed toward ensuring archival protection while minimizing colour change. With less dilution, there would be more colour change.

Hope this helps.

PS - Tim Rudman's Toning Book is one everybody should have.

Hiernst · Jul 26, 2011

Thanks, Matt.

One last quick question - since the life of selenium toner is limited by the severely limited life of the hypo clearing agent used for dilution ----- will the toner bath last as long as the indications on the HCA bottle say or will it's life be cut even shorter by mixing it with the toner?

Again, thanks so much!

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