Washing before selenum toning?

matti · Feb 5, 2007

Before I have always picked out dry prints, soaked them and then toned them in selenum. But now I want to be a bit more efficient and tone the prints at the same session as printing.

Would this procedure work?

During the printing:
I make a quite short fix
Transfer the print to a water tray for a minute
Transfer the print to a new water tray for storage.

After the session:
Make fresh fixer and refix all prints a second time.
Quickly wash the prints in water.
Selenum tone
Wash for 60 mins.

So, the question is: do I need a long wash before toning?

/matti

Monophoto · Feb 5, 2007

Matti -

There is a well known problem with staining with selenium toner. I know that Ansel Adams recommended a process similar to what you are suggesting, but my experience has been that I get serious staining if I put a print into the toner without first having processed it for several minutes in hypoclear.

I suggest modifying your after-session process as follows:

Refix in fresh fixer
Rinse in plain water
Hypoclear for a minimum of three minutes. Do not discard the hypoclear.
Selenium tone
Back to the hypoclear for another minute. Discard after this step.
Wash.

And I would wash the prints by soaking them in trays of plain water. Each soak would be at least 5 minutes, with the prints transferred one-at a-time to another tray of water, and then repeating this process 5-6 times.

jovo · Feb 5, 2007

matti said:
So, the question is: do I need a long wash before toning?

I don't usually process a lot of prints at once, but I do tone after a 60' wash and then wash the toned prints for an additonal 30'. I've never experienced any staining or other degradation.

bwakel · Feb 5, 2007

Matti

I fix the prints as normal then wash in an archival washer for 40 minutes before toning. After toning I was them again for 30 minutes. This seems to work fine.

Barry

thefizz · Feb 5, 2007

Similar discussion here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

MurrayMinchin · Feb 5, 2007

One of my darkroom revelations bifAPUG (before I found APUG) was to remember Ansel writing that selenium toner requires an alkaline environment, and it came to me that I could go dev, water stop, first TF-4 (alkaline fix), second TF-4, then straight into selenium toner in water, water rinse, holding tray, then wash.

Now I use TF-3, a home made alkaline fix, but use the same sequence. The beauty of this is that I can even selenium tone test strips if I want to, or have a fully toned work print in my hands in around 8.5 minutes...a BIG plus considering how selenium can change the final look of a print.

Release the hounds!

Murray

jstraw · Feb 5, 2007

MurrayMinchin said:
One of my darkroom revelations bifAPUG (before I found APUG) was to remember Ansel writing that selenium toner requires an alkaline environment, and it came to me that I could go dev, water stop, first TF-4 (alkaline fix), second TF-4, then straight into selenium toner in water, water rinse, holding tray, then wash.

Now I use TF-3, a home made alkaline fix, but use the same sequence. The beauty of this is that I can even selenium tone test strips if I want to, or have a fully toned work print in my hands in around 8.5 minutes...a BIG plus considering how selenium can change the final look of a print.

Release the hounds!

Murray

Murray (that's my dad's name...can count the Murray's I've met in my life on one hand), do you use any stop bath between dev and TF-3/4? A water rinse?

DJGainer · Feb 5, 2007

I'll echo what Murray said. I use TF-4 and go straight into the selenium and have not seen any stains in my prints.

DJGainer · Feb 5, 2007

jstraw said:
Murray (that's my dad's name...can count the Murray's I've met in my life on one hand), do you use any stop bath between dev and TF-3/4? A water rinse?

You don't want to use an acidic stop between the alkaline developer and alkaline fix. The reason you would (possibly) get a stain with selenium is due to the acidic pH of the fix. Use a water rinse after the developer for 60s in running water and then straight into the fix.

MurrayMinchin · Feb 5, 2007

jstraw said:
...do you use any stop bath between dev and TF-3/4? A water rinse?

Yup, a 30 second rinse with lots of agitation. While it probably doesn't 'stop' development like an acid stop bath would, if procedures are consistant it woudn't matter in the end anyways.

Murray

eclarke · Feb 5, 2007

Howard Bond's efficient method is to deveop, acid stop,fix, place in a tray of dilute wash aid to hold and then selenium tone in a solution of 6 oz. selenium toner in 1 gal. wash aid then wash. It really works well and I have never had a streak or miscoloration since I learned this from him...EC

eclarke · Feb 5, 2007

I should add that this is with Ilford MG IV..EC

jstraw · Feb 5, 2007

I wish there was such a thing as a non-acid stop bath. That water rinse runs against the grain of my new water consumtion policy.

matti · Feb 5, 2007

Thanks. I will go with the procedure suggested by Monophoto and introduce Hypoclear.
/matti

DJGainer · Feb 5, 2007

jstraw said:
I wish there was such a thing as a non-acid stop bath. That water rinse runs against the grain of my new water consumtion policy.

The Film Developing Cookbook alludes to attempts by some individuals to make an alkaline stop, but I do not know if anything was successful.

JBrunner · Feb 5, 2007

jstraw said:
I wish there was such a thing as a non-acid stop bath. That water rinse runs against the grain of my new water consumtion policy.

Try using a water stop, that could work.

lee · Feb 5, 2007

just fill fill the tray with water and soak the print. I use citric acid also to help kill the smell of the darkroom.

lee\c

Edwardv · Feb 5, 2007

After fixing with TF4, I go straight to the combined working solution of hypo clearing agent and selenium toner. I have not experienced any problems with this method.

Shelly Grimson · Feb 5, 2007

I go from either multi contrast developer or Neutol wa to stop and then film strength Kodak or Agfa fix (1:3) for 60 seconds with fibre base paper. Then I rinse of the print with a few changes of water and finish the printing session with about 10 prints. If I can finish up by the next morning I leave them soaking in a tray then wash again for a few minutes. Then I tone in selenium and follow with Perma wash for about 15 minutes, rinse until the Formulary residual hypo test shows no stain -usually 15 to 20 minutes in 68 centigrade water. I find that if I do a second fix, it takes forever to show no residual fix stain, so I cut out that step. I never have stains however sometimes I get some colourless fingerprints on the prints which I attribute to just being sloppy and touching the image area of the prints. I'm not trying to bore you with all this, I'm no expert, but I always worry about this process. I can't stand wasting water and if I run the tap for 30 to 60 minutes with warm water mixed in to keep the temp around 20 degress, it uses up all the hot water and other household chores can't be done. ( Not to mention the power wasted. If I used only cold water it would be well below 50 fahrenheit as the Toronto water is always quite cold. Any suggestions...?

jstraw · Feb 5, 2007

Is it possible to use an acid stop bath and TF4 with some sort of alkaline buffer between those steps...like water with baking soda or something?

DJGainer · Feb 5, 2007

Maybe, but the point of using TF4 is to keep the process alkaline throughout, to eliminate shifting the pH of the environment back and forth. I'd be interested to see if anyone else has tried what you just thought of...

jstraw · Feb 5, 2007

I'm just casting about for a way around running lots of water as a stop-step between dev and fix.

jovo · Feb 5, 2007

Shelly Grimson said:
I can't stand wasting water and if I run the tap for 30 to 60 minutes with warm water mixed in to keep the temp around 20 degress, it uses up all the hot water and other household chores can't be done.

Hmmmm.....I wonder if washing prints is comparable to washing film. Obviously, FB paper is likely to absorb more fixer than film is, which only absorbs it in the emulsion, but might a certain number of water changes suffice for paper? When I wash film I fill, slosh and empty the washer 12 times...period! You can mystify and obfuscate the obvious all you want to, chant secret mantras and dance in a cabalic circle till your feet swell, but the film is completely washed (I have years and years of evidence that this is so)...end of story. Perhaps there's a critical number of exchanges of water that will do the same for paper beyond which one is swatting at shadows, and indulging one's inner anal fussbudget. It would be worth it to save the water albeit it would be much more labor intensive.

DJGainer · Feb 5, 2007

Yes, in my prior post I was quoting the manufacturer's suggestions, but I don't use running water in my darkroom. I fill the tray with water at the beginning, agitate for 60s and then right onto the fix for 60s. I dump the water and refill when it starts getting too yellow from the developer carry-over.

dancqu · Feb 5, 2007

Monophoto said:
I know that Ansel Adams recommended a
process similar to what you are suggesting, ...

Some what similar. He was in the darkroom for about
50 + years. For a time, IIRC, he used a some what acid
stop and 1st fix then held. Prints then went into an alkaline
sodium thiosulfate 2nd fix, Adam's plain fixer, then into a
selenium + KHCA bath. How he processed prior to the
50s and the advent of KHCA and KRST I don't know.

My box of KHCA instructs one to add 71 grams of
Kodalk to each gallon of KHCA. That is to insure the
alkaline condition of the print. Adam's used an ALKALINE
2nd fix and so could get away with a direct transfer to
the KHCA + KRST bath. That bath combination is short
lived. If the two are to be used separately the KRST
can be used many times over. But be sure the print
is in an alkaline condition; KHCA + Kodalk. Dan

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