Warmtone papers as Agfa Record Rapid substitute

Dali

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Hi there,

I recently opened a box of prints I did 30 years and immediately noticed the warm tone of the Record Rapid I used these days.

RR paper is no more there and I wonder if it is possible to get nowadays a close result in terms of tone and "gloss" with a VC paper...

Any suggestion is welcome!
 

tedr1

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I also wish RR were still around. My recent experiences show Ilford MG Warmtone (fiberbase) is close, it has the cream base, the warm black tones and the air-dry semi-gloss surface, I am pleased to find it. The Ilford RC warmtone version isn't close however IMHO.
 

Ian Grant

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Ilford Warmtone FB has a white base., they changed from the creamy off white base a few years ago.

Fomatone MG Classic 131 is very nice but I prefer a whiter base which is why I switched from Agfa to Forte Polywarmtone and more recently Ilford Warmtone.

30 years ago Record Rapid still contained Cadmium, it changed not long after when the Cadmium was removed, the last version wasn't quite the same, nor was Portriga. There really isn't a paper anywhere close to the oldewr RR.

Ian
 
OP
OP

Dali

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Thanks tedr1. No I don't consider RC papers but I might give a try with the MGWT...
 

Ian Grant

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Surprisingly using a Bromide paper and printing with neutral tones then bleaching in a re-halogenating bleach and re-developing in Pyrocat HD is very close to the feel of Record Rapid (with Cadmium). One side affect is the Pyrocat gives the base a very slight creamy stain as well.

Or use Ilford IT-8 Toner which uses a Dichromate rehalogenating bleach and a simpler Pyrocatechin developer but this intensifies as well (due to the dichromate stain).

Ian
 

tedr1

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Ian Grant said:
Ilford Warmtone FB has a white base., they changed from the creamy off white base a few years ago.
Ian
Click to expand...

The fresh MGFBWT prints I have at hand and the Ilford paper swatch both book clearly show the Ilford MG Warmtone base is not pure white but a light cream.

This is quoted from the Ilford website: "MULTIGRADE FB WARMTONE has a warm white base tint and prints made on the paper have warm deep blacks and creamy tones that are exceptional."
 
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Ian Grant

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There's posts by Simon Galley about the change in the base, it's not as creamy white as the original base and contains optical brighteners. Simon & Ilford suggested that prolonged washing would remove them and give a creamier base. I wouldn't be using the paper if they hadn't changed the base I really disliked it

I remember going to a trade shows in the late 80's & early 90's and talking to all the paper manufacturers, looking at samples (sometimes being given some). Eventually when Agfa ceased manufacture I looked again at Ilford Warmtone but went for Polywarmtone instead because of the paper base.

Ian
 

K-G

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You may also try Berger variable CB warmtone. It has a slightly brighter base than Ilford MGWT but the blacks are pleasantly warm.

Karl-Gustaf
 

paul ron

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mmmmm i think we all miss RR n agfa in general.

i was told ADOX was about the same. i tried it using the same pix i did years ago on RR, not quite the same but close if you never saw the original.

im now a big fan of illford mgv vc fb n the warm version for some prints. its a very nice paper to work with.
 

Ron789

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Ilford MGFB Warmtone gets close, but nothing beats the old Agfa Record Rapid. It's the cadmium in RR that seems to make the difference. Use of cadmium is no longer allowed. I will try Adox MCC one of these days; that seems to get very close; I'd be interested to hear how Adox MCC compares top Ilford MGFBWT, and of course good to old Record Rapid.
 

paul ron

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I use both the plain n warm tone.. the warm tone is too warm compared to RR. But stand alone.. illford is a beautiful paper in both flavors. Just hang your RR prints on one side of the gallery.. and illford across the street.
 

R.Gould

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Having used RR I have tried MGVCWTFB paper and lately have been using the Adox mcc110 and I find that in a w/t developer such as the Fotospeed warmtone dev it is as warm, if not slightly warmer, the the Ilford paper, it is a near match for RR even in a standard developer, not quite the same, but nothing ever will be, but very close
 

Ian Grant

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paul ron said:
I use both the plain n warm tone.. the warm tone is too warm compared to RR. But stand alone.. illford is a beautiful paper in both flavors. Just hang your RR prints on one side of the gallery.. and illford across the street.
Click to expand...

A lot depends on how you process, choice of developer as well as temperature and exposure and development time, My experience is that neither MCC or Ilford Warmtone are as flexible as RR, even the last variant with no Cadmium. It's difficult to get close to the extremes of warmth possible with RR with any current paper.

Your comments about hanging RR prints on one Gallery wall and Ilford Warmtone prints separately makes sense as I've found that in practice when I came to put an exhibition together a few years ago. I had to pull work from two bodies of work both printed on RR and Agfa MCC (they matched OK) but newer images were on Polywarmtone which had quite a significantly different feel/look. I ended up re-printing all the images to make a coherent exhibition set.

I've since found that I can mix Ilford Warmtone prints with those on Polywarmtone if I had to but not with Fomatatone MG Classic 131.

Ian
 

ValoPeikko

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Ilford WT papers work well when developed in staining developer (I've used caffenol-C). It has rich warm tone and deep blacks (I love the matt version of the paper). But of course you get very stained brown paper base in this development. Which either works for you or doesn't. For me it's a nice option for some of my work but not for everything. Also caffenol-c development and then gold toning gives interesting effect. With warm background and deep brown tonality and colder more neutral blacks.
 

dpurdy

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As I remember, Insignia wasn't introduced until after Agfa stopped the cadmium and it was their new high end art paper with a brighter whiter base than Portriga. I prefer a slightly warmer paper without brighteners but the latest version of Oriental WT is too much. I have had very good luck with putting some brewed black tea in my stop bath. It stains the paper slightly depending on how strong you make the tea and how long you leave the print in the stop bath. Ilford WTFB became to bright white for my tastes a few years ago but it is my choice of paper anyway.
Dennis
 

Ian Grant

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When the Cadmium was removed from Record Rapid there was no change in the paper base and when Record Rapid was effectively replaced by MCC the base was still the same. The Agfa code for Insignia was 111 which was the code for Record Rapid in the rest of the world, Agfa must have tried to re-launch the paper in the US.

Ian
 

Jan-Peter

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Hi, Dali - and the others;

about thirty years ago over here in Germany Agfa paper of course was very common particularly as Leonard - Hamburg was going to close down.

My brother and I bought many packages of the nowaday legendary Agfa Record Rapid, RR, a genuine baryta paper with a high amount of silver. Silver was missing in Argenta and Forte papers in the seventies and eighties. Thus Agfa Record Rapid was absolutely first choice.

Record RApid was slightly changing tone using e.g. Neutol neutral or Neutol WA (warmtone). - In my opinion Agfa Record Rapid was getting excellent in Kodak Selectol developer.

Today's "replacement": Honestly I am entirely fond of Ilford MG Warmtone baryta paper. Concerning the multi grading and also its behavior while developing, exposure time and developing time I think the Ilford MG WT is absolutely excellent.

Looking at my many 20x24" size enlargements I think that also Foma MG Classic 131 has a tone that is fairly close to the old Agfa RR paper, depending on what developer you use. - In general I prefer Kodak Dektol, a rather cool developer giving the warmtone papers a kind of marble tone. For the Ilford MG warmtone I also used the Ilford BRomphen, which also give great tone!

Concerning the Cadmium: Yes! As what I know Cadmium was used against any kind of oxydation. Thus: If you rather buy very old paper, up to the mid-seventies, you are right off; do not buy the ninties-Agfa papers as they turn grey as soon as you put them into the developer bath. - Thus: If you buy any Agfa Record Rapid, rather go on the old oval labelled packages.


Wishing you all the best and much fun! - With greetings from Lake of Constance.

Jan-Peter
 
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