Warmtone paper green

Cybertrash · May 24, 2016

Hey folks,

I've been experimenting with warmtone paper a bit, and I've noticed that most of the time it comes out with a fairly heavy green cast, which doesn't look so nice. I've tried using both Dektol and Neutol WA and they both give the same cast, this is noticeable on most WT papers I've tried (including Ilford), but especially so on Fomatone MG, which I really like otherwise due to it's semi-matte (natural) base. Any ideas what I can do to get rid of this cast? I've tried Selenium toning which does appear to help a bit, but in many cases it cools the paper down so as it is not really "warmtone" anymore.

Doc W · May 24, 2016

Some papers just have a green cast to them. I find the Ilford MGIV (not the WT) has just such a tone and I get rid of it by toning in selenium. The paper doesn't tone all that well in selenium, that is, it never gets that lovely purple tone, or at least, not much of it, but toning does remove the green, making it much more neutral.

mnemosyne · May 24, 2016

Fomatol PW developer will give you a nice warm tone (not greenish) with Fomatone paper. But it will vary a bit with exposure, dilution and developer temperature.

wilfbiffherb · May 25, 2016

As suggested before selenium toner is the way to go. Try a dilution of around 1:20 for 30s to 1:00. This should neutralise the tone a little and add a little density to your shadow areas.

Ian Grant · May 25, 2016

If you want better warmth you need to cut the development time (or increase dilution slightly) and increase the exposure slightly. This works well with Ilford Warmtone paper. If you over develop you kill the warmth and it won't respond as well to Selenium toning,

Most warm-tone papers have a slight green look until Selenium toned. Below is something I posted more than once in the past:

Ian Grant said:
The late Peter Goldfield (who had worked with Minor White) had a trick on workshops. He'd cut a sheet of Warmtone paper into strips exposing each strip for different times, then he'd cut each strip into small squares. Then all went into the developer face up, he'd pull out 4 or 5 every 15 seconds or so a light one then the darkest and two or three in between rinsing and fixing. This all seemed very random until the squares were washed for a couple of minutes and swabbed dry.

It was only then with the lights on he matched approx density squares and you saw the huge difference in warmth/colour, it was rather a neat memorable demonstration. He was using Agfa Record Rapid which still had Cadmium in the emulsion (late 1980's) and that gave a much greater colour shift compared to modern Warmtone papers but there's still a reasonable shift due to development alone and it's more natural than toning.

Ian

Cybertrash · May 25, 2016

mnemosyne said:
Fomatol PW developer will give you a nice warm tone (not greenish) with Fomatone paper. But it will vary a bit with exposure, dilution and developer temperature.

Interesting, I'll see if I can get a hold of some. Is it very different from "normal" Warmtone developer?

wilfbiffherb said:
As suggested before selenium toner is the way to go. Try a dilution of around 1:20 for 30s to 1:00. This should neutralise the tone a little and add a little density to your shadow areas.

I tried KRST at 1:20 at various different times, at 2 minutes I didn't see much effect, but at 4mins I think it killed the warmth too much. at 10 minutes it got too red for my tastes

Ian Grant said:
If you want better warmth you need to cut the development time (or increase dilution slightly) and increase the exposure slightly. This works well with Ilford Warmtone paper. If you over develop you kill the warmth and it won't respond as well to Selenium toning,

Most warm-tone papers have a slight green look until Selenium toned. Below is something I posted more than once in the past:
<snip>
Ian

Ok, currently I develop for 2 minutes in Dektol 1:3 for example, so you suggest I would use Dektol 1:2 or 1:1 and develop for maybe 1:30 or 1 minute?

images39 · May 25, 2016

I find that selenium toning warms the paper noticeably (with Ilford and Foma WT papers), but I'm using stronger selenium dilutions than others have suggested here. With warmtone papers, I use selenium either 1:9 or 1:12. For neutral papers, I use more dilute selenium (1:15 or 1:20), or it gets too purple for my taste.

Interesting suggestion about reducing development time for more warmth, I think I'll try that...

Dale

Gerald C Koch · May 25, 2016

MQ developers are known to sometimes produce an olive (green) tone with some papers. This can be reduced by changing the exposure and development time. A PQ developers do not have this tendency however they also do not produce as warm a tone. Another possibility would be an ascorbate based developer such as DS-15. So you can change papers or developers.

mnemosyne · May 25, 2016

Cybertrash said:
Interesting, I'll see if I can get a hold of some. Is it very different from "normal" Warmtone developer?

Frankly, IDK, it's the only WT developer I have ever used. I just started using WT papers recently. AFAIK Fomatol PW is based on ascorbate/phenidone. It will give more brownish tones compared to my standard neutral developer (Rollei Vintage).

Ian Grant · May 26, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
MQ developers are known to sometimes produce an olive (green) tone with some papers. This can be reduced by changing the exposure and development time. A PQ developers do not have this tendency however they also do not produce as warm a tone. Another possibility would be an ascorbate based developer such as DS-15. So you can change papers or developers.

Other way around a PQ version of an MQ developer gives warmer tones. However when Ilford introduced their PQ versions of of ID-2 and ID-36 customers complained about shifts in warmth/colour so they were re-formulated with Benzotriazole added to prevent this. Warm tone developers don't contain Benzotriazole so a PQ one is warmer than MQ

Agfa WA used to be sold as a powder developer ans well as a liquid, essentially the same formula except the powder version was MQ and the liquid PQ, and the liquid version was warmer.

Cybertrash said:
k, currently I develop for 2 minutes in Dektol 1:3 for example, so you suggest I would use Dektol 1:2 or 1:1 and develop for maybe 1:30 or 1 minute?

No I'm suggesting cut the time in Dektol 1:3 to 1:30 or 1 minute, or use the Dektol at 1:4 or 1:5 and develop for 2 minutes, you'll need to increase exposure slightly to compensate.

Ian

Ian Grant · May 26, 2016

images39 said:
Interesting suggestion about reducing development time for more warmth, I think I'll try that...

Dale

Actually it's an old technique and you can find it recommended in older Agfa, Kodak, Ilford, Gevaert etc handbooks. Modern warm-tone papers (with no Cadmium) have less flexibility and don't respond to the very high dilutions and quite substantial extra exposures (and long dev times) that used to be recommended. However there's still a reasonable margin of control to significantly increase warmth.

Ian

Wayne · May 26, 2016

Ian Grant said:
Other way around a PQ version of an MQ developer gives warmer tones. ... Warm tone developers don't contain Benzotriazole so a PQ one is warmer than MQ

Both of these sentences are counter to everything I've read and also to my own experience. I've generally used benzotriazole with phenidone because it's less responsive to KBR (though I may use that too), and I always get cooler tones with PQ developers on warmtone papers. Having said that I'm no chemist and won't argue wihether the cooler tone is more from the P or the BZAT but I will argue that its there.

Ian Grant · May 26, 2016

Wayne said:
Both of these sentences are counter to everything I've read and also to my own experience. I've generally used benzotriazole with phenidone because it's less responsive to KBR (though I may use that too), and I always get cooler tones with PQ developers on warmtone papers. Having said that I'm no chemist and won't argue wihether the cooler tone is more from the P or the BZAT but I will argue that its there.

This is the difference between Ilford ID-62 -a PQ Universal Neutral tone developer and Ilford ID-78 - a warm tone developer once sold in powder form, it's the basis of the current Ilford warm tone developer. As you can see ID-62 uses Bromide and Benzotriazole while the warm-tone developer only has Bromide. (I spent a few years working as a photo-chemist).

ID-3 is a Soft working developers similar to Selectol Soft/Adaptol, ID-14 is a contrast developer, I used to keep both on the shelf when I used Graded papers.

Ian

baachitraka · May 26, 2016

The late Peter Goldfield (who had worked with Minor White) had a trick on workshops. He'd cut a sheet of Warmtone paper into strips exposing each strip for different times, then he'd cut each strip into small squares. Then all went into the developer face up, he'd pull out 4 or 5 every 15 seconds or so a light one then the darkest and two or three in between rinsing and fixing. This all seemed very random until the squares were washed for a couple of minutes and swabbed dry.

It was only then with the lights on he matched approx density squares and you saw the huge difference in warmth/colour, it was rather a neat memorable demonstration. He was using Agfa Record Rapid which still had Cadmium in the emulsion (late 1980's) and that gave a much greater colour shift compared to modern Warmtone papers but there's still a reasonable shift due to development alone and it's more natural than toning.

@Ian Grant I do not really understand this trick.
If there are 5 strips and each take exposure of 8s, 10.1s, 12.7s, 16s and 20.2s and each strip is cut into 4 squares and developed face up, how can we know which square belong to which strip? Or I miss something?

Ian Grant · May 26, 2016

baachitraka said:
@Ian Grant I do not really understand this trick.
If there are 5 strips and each take exposure of 8s, 10.1s, 12.7s, 16s and 20.2s and each strip is cut into 4 squares and developed face up, how can we know which square belong to which strip? Or I miss something?

The whole point is you don't know, each strip was only exposed for one of those times (that's the bit that you found ambiguous). So initially he'd pull out one close to Dmax and a few steps in between to minimal tone, then he pull out similar 15 to 20 seconds later roughly matching densities under safelight conditions, there were probably some excess squares. They'd get mixed up in the fixer and brief rinse then swabbed and the different densities laid out next to each other and suddenly you noticed the colour shits.

Ian

Wayne · May 26, 2016

Ian Grant said:
This is the difference between Ilford ID-62 -a PQ Universal Neutral tone developer and Ilford ID-78 - a warm tone developer once sold in powder form, it's the basis of the current Ilford warm tone developer. As you can see ID-62 uses Bromide and Benzotriazole while the warm-tone developer only has Bromide. (I spent a few years working as a photo-chemist).

ID-3 is a Soft working developers similar to Selectol Soft/Adaptol, ID-14 is a contrast developer, I used to keep both on the shelf when I used Graded papers.

Ian

I've used a variant of ID-62 with glycin extensively, and it gives cooler tones than similar MQ developers. That's why I use it.

baachitraka · May 26, 2016

It is basically to find out the exposure that gives desired color in warm tone papers. Right.

Ian Grant · May 26, 2016

baachitraka said:
It is basically to find out the exposure that gives desired color in warm tone papers. Right.

Yes.

At some point many writers have forgotten or overlooked development controls with Warm tone papers.

Ian

Cybertrash · May 27, 2016

I tried the tips I got, mixed my developer at 1:16 instead of 1:10 and cut development time in half (tried normal first, didn't give much effect). This did improve things, but very subtly. I then toned it for 3 minutes in KRST 1:10, which got rid of the green cast... It's not quite the sepia, yellow-brown tone I thought I would get but it looks good. I'll order some of the Foma developer next time I buy papers as well.

Ian Grant · May 27, 2016

You probably need to switch paper rather than developer. I'm now starting to use Ilford MG Warmtone FB after a few yearsusing Forte Polywarmtone after Agfa stopped making papers. Initially it's not apparent just how warm many of my images are particularly in artificial light but you really notice it when a neutral tone print is put alongside, I've just been using some old Kodak Polymax II and the difference is quite marked particularly in Daylight.

The best paper still available that will give you a more sepia/yellow brown tone is Fomatone MG Classic 131, it has a creamier base than Ilford Warmtone FB and responds well to development control. I thought about switching to it and tried a box but prefer a whiter paper base, it's a nice paper though lightly selenium toned it's a more yellow brown and longer in the selenium shifts it to a more reddish brown.

Ian

removed account4 · May 27, 2016

hey CT

how about using a soft working developer like selectol? and maybe using it split with dilute dektol next to it.
caffenol c and a little dektol will remove the green cast too, but your paper might be brownish because of the coffee/

jeffreyg · May 27, 2016

Quite some time ago I used Portriga Rapid 118 and developed it for a minute in Selectol Soft and then 1 1/2 - 2 minutes in Dektol and selenium toned just until the greenish cast disappeared. It gave great results when warm tones were desired. Too bad it's no longer around. The new Ilford warmtone isn't the same but I haven't tried their semi-matte surface. Has anyone tried and compared it to their warmtone glossy? Other than the surface did it give the appearance of a warmer tone? Does the water source the chemistry is mixed with (ie local well water vs city water) make a difference?

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Cybertrash · May 27, 2016

Ian Grant said:
You probably need to switch paper rather than developer. I'm now starting to use Ilford MG Warmtone FB after a few yearsusing Forte Polywarmtone after Agfa stopped making papers. Initially it's not apparent just how warm many of my images are particularly in artificial light but you really notice it when a neutral tone print is put alongside, I've just been using some old Kodak Polymax II and the difference is quite marked particularly in Daylight.

The best paper still available that will give you a more sepia/yellow brown tone is Fomatone MG Classic 131, it has a creamier base than Ilford Warmtone FB and responds well to development control. I thought about switching to it and tried a box but prefer a whiter paper base, it's a nice paper though lightly selenium toned it's a more yellow brown and longer in the selenium shifts it to a more reddish brown.

Ian

I use Fomatone MG 532, which I thought had even "yellower" base than 131?

Warmtone paper green

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