Warmtone issues

waileong · Apr 2, 2006

I wanted a warmer look than what I was getting from the standard Ilford Multigrade Portfolio RC paper, so I experimented with some Warmtone FB paper last weekend. In fact, I even felt that the standard processing did not give me enough warmth, so I used very dilute developer and developed in PQ 1+39 for 6-7 mins instead of the usual 1-2 mins.

Two questions for those who are more experience in this:

* I got the warmth, but I also got more grain as well-- is that normal when using warmtone paper? Or is that because of the extended development?

* I also notice that my paper borders are no longer white, when placed against the borders of my Multigrade Portfolio prints, they look a bit brownish-white to me. Is this a fixing problem, or is it the way warmtone paper is built?

Thanks for advice.

Wai Leong
===

bill schwab · Apr 2, 2006

waileong said:
I got the warmth, but I also got more grain as well-- is that normal when using warmtone paper? Or is that because of the extended development?

I would say the longer development would be the grain issue.

waileong said:
I also notice that my paper borders are no longer white, when placed against the borders of my Multigrade Portfolio prints, they look a bit brownish-white to me. Is this a fixing problem, or is it the way warmtone paper is built?

Sadly this is a trait of the Ilford warmtone. I think the paper base is as much the reason for the warmth than anything else. Because of your extended development, you might be getting some fogging as well. I ended up going with the regular multigrade with a very dilute sepia for this reason. The paper base stays a nice bright white and I get my warmth.

Good luck,

Bill

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 2, 2006

Another solution for warmtone results while keeping a white base is to use the new Ilford Warmtone developer with a warmtone paper like Forte Polywarmtone, Bergger VCCB or other warmtone paper. The Ilford Warmtone PAPER has a cream base. Combine it with the Warmtone developer if you want a sepia-look without the hassle of bleaching and toning.

donbga · Apr 2, 2006

TheFlyingCamera said:
Another solution for warmtone results while keeping a white base is to use the new Ilford Warmtone developer with a warmtone paper like Forte Polywarmtone, Bergger VCCB or other warmtone paper. The Ilford Warmtone PAPER has a cream base. Combine it with the Warmtone developer if you want a sepia-look without the hassle of bleaching and toning.

Ther are also warm toned developer formulas that will work too. Refer to the Steve Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook for the recipes. Particulary the old Ansco warmtone formulas - they work to varying degrees.

Nelson gold toner may also be a consideration, the color and degree of tone will vary from paper to paper.

boyooso · Apr 3, 2006

Regarding the warmth of Ilford's wartone paper, if you look at their literature, it states that you should not over fix the paper, as it looses its warmth as you fix it. Also, they state that you should not over wash it... it also looses its warmth as you wash it.

An absolutely beautiful look for the ilford warmtone fiber is to print is slightly dark, dry it, resoak it and and use Kodak's sepia II toner. Give it like a 15-20 second bleach, and then tone it. it gives a tone to the high lights(kind of yellow/green/brown/tan), leaving the darker midtones and shadows more neutral...

Good Luck!

Corey

FrankB · Apr 3, 2006

boyooso said:
Regarding the warmth of Ilford's wartone paper, if you look at their literature, it states that you should not over fix the paper, as it looses its warmth as you fix it. Also, they state that you should not over wash it... it also looses its warmth as you wash it.

Hi Corey,

I've just taken a look at the Ilford MGWT FB PDF that I have and it states

"Short washing times, for example, when using a washing aid, will give a cooler image color than longer washing times. For warmest results, always wash prints for at least 30 minutes."

As this seems to contradict the literature to which you've referred, could you state your source please?

Thanks,

Frank

argus · Apr 3, 2006

TheFlyingCamera said:
Another solution for warmtone results while keeping a white base is to use the new Ilford Warmtone developer with a warmtone paper like Forte Polywarmtone, Bergger VCCB or other warmtone paper. The Ilford Warmtone PAPER has a cream base. Combine it with the Warmtone developer if you want a sepia-look without the hassle of bleaching and toning.

That is not quite as correct: The sepia effect from using the WT paper & new WT developer is not as dramatic as a real sepia toning: look here (selenium toned) for a print-matched-scan.
It is true that the Ilford WT papers have a creamy base that I don't always like.

boyooso said:
An absolutely beautiful look for the ilford warmtone fiber is to print is slightly dark, dry it, resoak it and and use Kodak's sepia II toner. Give it like a 15-20 second bleach, and then tone it. it gives a tone to the high lights(kind of yellow/green/brown/tan), leaving the darker midtones and shadows more neutral...

That's a very interesting effect. The difficulty lies in pulling the print from the bleach at the right moment.
I mostly let the highlights bleach out (Amaloco toners).

G

FrankB · Apr 3, 2006

ISTR hearing (I think from Les) that a good technique with bleach-n-tone toners is to use a very short duration dilute bleach followed by a wash/tone/wash cycle, then a bleach as far as you want followed by another wash/tone/wash cycle.

The toner each time only works on the bleached areas and the highlights are better preserved.

I haven't tried it so can't vouch for it personally (and apologies to Les if I've got the description wrong!).

Les McLean · Apr 3, 2006

FrankB said:
ISTR hearing (I think from Les) that a good technique with bleach-n-tone toners is to use a very short duration dilute bleach followed by a wash/tone/wash cycle, then a bleach as far as you want followed by another wash/tone/wash cycle.

The toner each time only works on the bleached areas and the highlights are better preserved.

I haven't tried it so can't vouch for it personally (and apologies to Les if I've got the description wrong!).

That's just about right Frank. A short bleach (20secs) in very dilute bleach solution (1 to 30 or 40) will slightly bleach the highlight only which, when toned, will not be affected by a second, longer immersion, in a normal strength bleach. The overall effect on the print colour is then determined by how long it is given in the second bleach and of course the type of sepia toner used.

My suggestion to achieve the best warm tones from Ilford Warmtone Fibre paper is to use the new Warmtone developer. Should that not give enough warmth you can give a little more exposure and pull the print from the developer after about 50% of the normal development time.. Another method of warming up prints is to add 10 to 15ml of a 10% solution of Pot Bromide.

Dave Miller · Apr 3, 2006

Les, I see from your avatar that you have now had your face lift; I must say you look so much better for it.

FrankB · Apr 3, 2006

Dave Miller said:
Les, I see from your avatar that you have now had your face lift; I must say you look so much better for it.

Yes, but the new contact lenses weren't as much of a success...

Thanks for clearing that up, Les. I have some of the new warmtone dev and hope to be trying that out this weekend.

Blighty · Apr 3, 2006

I have used Ilford warm FB in Gevaert G.262, a recipe from Anchells 'Darkroom Cookbook'. I found that it produced very warm tones, but only after considerable development (6 mins+ at 25C). It also produced an 'aged ivory' tone in the borders and highlights. Personally, I didn't mind this one bit as it made for quite an interesting effect, but I can see why some people may find it unpleasant. To be honest, I've always struggled to produce the warm tones that I'm told some warmtone papers are capable of.

Dave Miller · Apr 3, 2006

I find that warm tone and for that matter cold tone are usually quite subtle differences from standard paper/emulsion colour, often only noticeable when a direct comparison is made either between the two extremes, or with a standard paper. As has been said further enhancement is usually made by modification to either developer, or toner time, temperature, or dilution.

boyooso · Apr 3, 2006

Frank,

I suppose my memory has remmebered incorrectly. I don't have the data sheet in front of my, so I must take your word for it.

Sorry.

Corey

FrankB · Apr 3, 2006

No worries, Corey. I didn't mean it as a personal slight, I was just wondering if there was a conflicting source of info somewhere.

Here's a link to the Ilford product page; all the data sheets are available from here - http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/default.asp

All the best,

Frank

Les McLean · Apr 3, 2006

Dave Miller said:
Les, I see from your avatar that you have now had your face lift; I must say you look so much better for it.

Thank you so much for the very kind words Mr Miller, your powers of observation have improved greatly since we last met?

Actually the picture of Sadie, the cross border collie/labrador, was made in LA after we chased it in Frank Fillipone's car. Sadie was in a in a leather box on the back of her owners motor bike and when they stopped I had a chat and made a few photographs which I will send to them. She was a lovely hound.

FrankB · Apr 3, 2006

Les McLean said:
Sadie was in a in a leather box on the back of her owners motor bike...

Now that has to beat sticking her nose out of a car window!

Nice shot, Les!

Dave Miller · Apr 3, 2006

Les McLean said:
Thank you so much for the very kind words Mr Miller, your powers of observation have improved greatly since we last met?

That’s quite alright Les; always happy to try and wind-up a Geordie.

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