Warmtone FB Replacement for Forte P14

Richard Jepsen · Aug 6, 2007

My base paper was Forte Polywarmtone Plus Glossy (P14). I hope one of the fine remaining coating companies will copy P14s emulsion for old Agfa/Forte customers.

Searching for a replacement I just purchased glossy Kentmere Kentona, Fomatone MG Classic and Oriental Warmtone VC fiber papers from Freestyle. I hope one of these will separate low tones and have similar microcontrast to Forte P14.

Can anyone compare Oriental, Kentona and Fomatone MG warmtone fiber papers to P14 or Ilford Multicontrast Warmtone Fiber? I am familiar as many are with Ilford's Warmtone and can relate an Oriental to Ilford description to P14.

ChuckP · Aug 7, 2007

I found that Fomatone MG has a much warmer base than Polywarmtone. Very nice paper but different. I see that Oriental now has a new Warmtone VC. The old was not in a glossy surface. Also had a warmer base than Polywarmtone. I wonder who makes the Oriental? And it seems to me that the last package of Ilford Warmtone I got has a colder base. Or maybe the other stuff was just getting old.

PHOTOTONE · Aug 7, 2007

You can probably still get, if you want to, some of that Forte made paper under the Bergger label. Bergger papers were made by Forte, and they still have stocks to sell until they get another source manufacturer lined up. Sorry, I can't give you the Bergger name for this paper, but some others can, I am sure.

Richard Jepsen · Aug 8, 2007

Oriental is not rebranded paper. I read that the emulsion is warm black on pure white base. That would make it similar to P14. I doubt another paper exists which can be manipulated to change color like P14. Kentmere Kentona and Fomatone MG Classic have a buff paper base.

I have not had luck storing paper for more than 3 years. Rebranded P14 may only have a short shelf time remaining. Best to move on to the next paper.

It would be useful if we had Photo Tech do a piece on the remaining papers and their characteristics. :rolleyes:

mikeg · Aug 8, 2007

Tim Rudman mentioned in his most recent email update dated 29th May from his world of lith printing website (www.worldoflithprinting.com) that Kentmere were in discussions to purchase the formula for PWT along with the plant machinery etc.

Not sure how far those discussions have got now but he did mention that they had been going on since January and that they were advanced. I don't know if anyone has heard anything more recent?

I wouldn't hold your breath but PWT may make a return in the next year or two.

Mike

Ian Grant · Aug 8, 2007

Mike, it's been posted elsewhere that Kentmere have ceased negotiations, how accurate the information was is uncertain.

However Mirko from Fotoimpex has sent out trial coatings of his new Agfa Classic replacement and this will be an excellent replacement for the Forte Polywarmtone.

Ian

mikeg · Aug 8, 2007

Thanks Ian for correcting me -- I've been away a lot recently so must have missed that announcement.

I'm a big fan of Agfa MCC so I was very quick to get my email in to Mirko for his trial pack. Not sure if it will replace PWT though. I don't want to hijack the thread but have you received your trial Adox/Agfa MCC pack then?

Mike

Ian Grant · Aug 8, 2007

Mike, because I'm living abroad I haven't yet got my darkroom set-up, so I didn't ask for one. I have a large supply of PWT.

I prefer the PWT over MCC which I switched from, but I can use either, unfortunately neither Ilford or Kentmere warmtone papers are quite what I prefer, one has a surface I dont like and the other base colour.

Ian

Richard Jepsen · Aug 8, 2007

I think many printers appreciate PW14 for it's unique properties. A clone would be a good seller. Can anyone compare/comment on Fomatone MG Classic, Oriental Warmtone VC FB, and Kentmere Kentona??????????:confused:

Ian Grant · Aug 8, 2007

Kentona's really nice but now only available in one Grade here in the UK. The Kentmere site in the US, actually run by their importer used ton show it available in 3 grades but that might have been an error

The Kentmere FINEPRINT F.G. WARMTONE is a really nice paper I just don't like its base colour. On a white base it would be superb.

Ian

Fotohuis · Aug 8, 2007

For all who are interested in the Forte PW14 paper: There is a project pending at the Foma R&D dpt. initialized by Bergger, Moersch and our Fotohuis to reproduce this paper at Foma's coating line. If this will be successfull depends on a lot of uncertain circumstances.

The base material will be a modified Fomatone MG 131/132 classic. For the Agfa MCC paper alternative I can only recommend the Fomabrom Variant 111/112 paper. Not the same but rather close to it. This paper was already available just a few months after the demise of Agfa Photo.

Thanks for your attention,

Robert

(Dutch Foma distributor)

Ian Grant · Aug 8, 2007

Robert, that's good news.

Keep us posted with progress.

Ian

Richard Jepsen · Aug 8, 2007

Great info Robert. I used to print with Agfa Multicontrast MCC 111. Strong blacks with the low tones separating nicely. Then I switched to PW14 which had a richer look toned. MC 111 had an outstanding paper base which dried flatter than other papers. PW14 and Fotokemika Varycon also resist curling.
Hope others can add their experience with the mentioned papers.

Peter Schrager · Aug 8, 2007

warm tones...

somewhere in some thread I thought I read that the varycon paper was warm toned. I tried out a 25 sheet package of the matte surface. it is really a nice paper and printed straight with an older zone vi cold light to a contrast that I liked. but in no way is it a warm tone paper. extremely nice paper-like more of an old fashion one at that. my favorite at the moment is my remaining stock of the forte semi-matte. one of the truly natural wt papers that were being produced. maybe the paper I'm confusing it with is a foma paper?? can someone straight this out for me. in the meantime I relish all that fotohuis is doing for us.
analog is here to stay and I plan to be part of it...
Best, Peter

Peter Schrager · Aug 8, 2007

wt paper

I think I answered my owned question by going to the foma website. it is the fomatone mg classic which is a wt paper available in matte or glossy...
Best, Peter

Fotohuis · Aug 8, 2007

Yes, Fomatone MG Classic (Fomatone (warmTONE), MG Multi Grade (V.C.) Classic (= Baryta). )
131 1=double weight baryta 3=warmtone (cream colored) 1=glossy
132 1=double weight baryta 3=warmtone (cream colored) 2=matt

542 5=natural baryta 4=chamois 2=matt

Fomabrom Variant
111 1=double weight baryta 1=extra white 1=glossy
112 1=double weight baryta 1=extra white 2=matt

Fomaspeed Variant III
311 3=resin coated (RC) 1=extra white 1=glossy
312 3=resin coated (RC) 1=extra white 2=matt

Fomatone MG RC
331 3=resin coated (RC) 3=warmtone 1=glossy
332 3=resin coated (RC) 3=warmtone 2=matt
333 3=resin coated (RC) 3=warmtone 3=velvet

Richard Jepsen · Aug 9, 2007

Varycon VC fiber glossy has a very slight eggshell base tint. Not as warm as P14 but warmer than Galerie paper tint. Varycon has a higher contrast curve than Ilford MG warmtone equivalent grades. Varycon's minimal instructions indicate a long traditional fix time 5 to 10 min. I assume their times are not with a rapid fix and mixed to a paper vs film ratio. I can't relate their referenced fix chemicals to TF-4 or a Ilford Rapid Fix. Therefore, for safety, I fix their paper with TF-4 for 2 min vs 60s. Wish someone could set me straight on this fix issue with Varycon.

Richard Jepsen · Aug 11, 2007

I just received a shipment of warmtone VC/FB Oriental and Foma Fomatone MG paper to experiment with this morning. Fomatone Tech data sheets would indicate the emulsion discription does not make this a replacement for P14. However, I am looking forward to exploring new papers.

Fomatone MG Classic tech data sheet is available on Fotohuis links. Many thanks.

Bob F. · Aug 11, 2007

Richard Jepsen said:
Varycon VC fiber glossy has a very slight eggshell base tint. Not as warm as P14 but warmer than Galerie paper tint. Varycon has a higher contrast curve than Ilford MG warmtone equivalent grades. Varycon's minimal instructions indicate a long traditional fix time 5 to 10 min. I assume their times are not with a rapid fix and mixed to a paper vs film ratio. I can't relate their referenced fix chemicals to TF-4 or a Ilford Rapid Fix. Therefore, for safety, I fix their paper with TF-4 for 2 min vs 60s. Wish someone could set me straight on this fix issue with Varycon.

Can't help directly, but you can test fixing time fairly easily. Expose a test strip to room light. Cut it in to several squares and mark each one: 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, 3 etc. Put one in the fixer for that amount of time and then immediately into some developer and swish it around (make up a batch of developer and do each test piece with fresh developer in a jug). Repeat until you find a time in the fixer that results in the paper not darkening in the developer. I would add at least 50% for a safety margin with fresh fixer.

Alternately of course you could use a residual fixer test instead which I believe you can get from the Formulary.

Good luck, Bob.

Richard Jepsen · Aug 12, 2007

Bob, thanks for the fix test.

Today I printed with Oriental Warmtone VC Fiber, Fomatone MG Classic and Ilford Warmtone MGIV FB using Ilford's PQ developer. All papers were fiber, VC and glossy. Oriental and Ilford have a similar speed/contrast curve. Fomatone MG Classic and Varycon are in the same family; but 2nd cousins to Oriental/Ilford. Oriental and Ilford's warmtone VC papers have extended range in the lighter tones. Fomatone and Varycon each have higher contrast and a shorter range. To match the tonal ranges I needed to burn in zone 6 and 7 on Fomatone. All the papers will make good images with the right negs.

Richard Jepsen · Aug 12, 2007

After printing again this morning I found Ilford's Multigrade Warmtone Glossy Fiber is close to Forte P14 vs the mentioned papers. Ilford and Oriental Warmtone are similar enough the difference is like a batch variation. Oriental is a few percent slower and lower in contrast. P14 still looks best as it separates tones between zone 3/4 and 6. P-14s microcontrast reminds me of the difference between a KST toned print with its depth and the same print untoned. Still bummed out over the loss of P14 but Ilford's Warmtone is very good.

Alex Hawley · Aug 12, 2007

Thanks for posting that comparison Richard. I still have enough Forte PWT to last another year. After that, it will be back to good ol' Ilford warmtone.

Warmtone FB Replacement for Forte P14

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency