Warmest warm tone developer formula?

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Dmosher

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Any opinions as to the warmest warm tone developer formula? I'll be using it with Ilford MGIV - NOT the warmtone paper. This is for a one time project, so I'm not too concerned with keeping properties, chemical cost, etc. I do plan on sepia toning also.

Thanks!
 

removedacct1

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Regular MGIV can't be manipulated to render conspicuously warm tones by developer choice alone. If you already have plans to use a sepia toner then develop in whatever you have and tone it to fit the job requirements.
 

Ian Grant

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Forget it you can't get warm-tone prints from MGIV, you might get a hint of warmth that's all.

Use a rehalogenating bleach using Potassium Ferricyanide and Sodium Chloride then re-develop in a warm tone developer that should work/

Ian
 

R.Gould

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As Ian says, yo won't get a true warm tone from MG4, you might just get a hint of a warm tone if you use something like Fotospeed wt10 at 1/29, but not a true warm tone, best way is to depend on sepia toneing to get the required effect

Richard
 

Ian Grant

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I only use Warmtone developer. in my case ID-78 which I mix to a commercial strength as more concentrated than the published formulae. I rarely use MGIV but did for one print on a recent printing session, just looked and no real hint of warmth but the print on Forte Polywarmtone is quite warm toned, very noticeably when the prints are viewed side by side.

Ian
 

R.Gould

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Same thing for Fomatone in FS warmtone, the more dilute the stronger the tone, For Foma I use it at 1/29, but for Art 300 or Adox MCC paper I use it at 1/19, and with both adox art paper I get noticieable warm tone in the final print,, not as warm as the Foma paper, but very nicely warm,I haven't used the Ilford warm tone paper for a while, but looking at some prints side by side there is very little difference between the Adox paper compared to the Ilford paper and the Art 300 is is pretty much the same,I remember the Agfa MCC paper as being quite warm on a warm base, but the adox is on a whiter base, I find it quote nice for the right subject
Richard
 

Gerald C Koch

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Today's papers, because of their formulation, do not respond well to warm tone developers. The presence of a heavy metals is what gave older papers their warmth. Heavy metals have been banned in photographic papers for a number of years.
 

Ian Grant

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lford IT-8 toner works well but it does intensify slightly, it uses a Bichromate re-halogenating bleach followed by a Pyrocatchin re-developer.

IT8toner.jpg
wedge_sm.jpg


The left is untoned Polywarmtone the right toned in IT-8.

Ian
 

cornflower2

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Try the old Gevaert G262H formula:

Stock Solution:
Water 1000cc
Sodium Sulphite 70gr
Hydroquinone 25gr
Potassium Carbonate 90gr
Potassium Bromide 2gr

Then dilute 1+2 to use. Use a long development time (eg. 5 mins) at 23C. For even greater warmth increase the Potassium Bromide up to 25gr. Only a modest development capacity - watch for dark staining in light areas upon exhaustion.

- Andrew
 
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Dmosher

Dmosher

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Thanks for the replies. I was hoping that a warm tone developer in conjunction with sepia toning would get me where I'm trying to get to, but it sounds like I need to concentrate on experimenting with different sepia toners.

I am currently using the Foma Sepia and have done some tests with the toner at different temperatures and haven't really gotten the deep sepia tone I'm looking for. Do the 'stinky' sepia toners have a stronger effect?

thanks again.
 

fjpod

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I think Ilford Bromaphen is a little warm when used in outdoor landscape type photos.... I'm no expert.
 

R.Gould

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Thanks for the replies. I was hoping that a warm tone developer in conjunction with sepia toning would get me where I'm trying to get to, but it sounds like I need to concentrate on experimenting with different sepia toners.

I am currently using the Foma Sepia and have done some tests with the toner at different temperatures and haven't really gotten the deep sepia tone I'm looking for. Do the 'stinky' sepia toners have a stronger effect?

thanks again.
Having used the Foma sepia I would suggest trying it at half the suggested strength for both the toner and bleach, that is, 50 ml of bleach to 950 of water, same for the toner, I find that while it is slower it gives a warmer deeper tone, and in my experiance having used the sulpher tone ( the smelly one) does not give amy deeper tone, the other way is to use the 3 bottle toner and vary the toner additive till you get what you want, but again use it a half the suggested strength,
Richard
 

Ian Grant

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Thanks for the replies. I was hoping that a warm tone developer in conjunction with sepia toning would get me where I'm trying to get to, but it sounds like I need to concentrate on experimenting with different sepia toners.

I am currently using the Foma Sepia and have done some tests with the toner at different temperatures and haven't really gotten the deep sepia tone I'm looking for. Do the 'stinky' sepia toners have a stronger effect?

thanks again.

You could try Flemish toner, that's a direct Selenium-Sulphide toner, I used Ilford IT-3 see the formulae here.

This image was on Forte Polywarmtone, I didn't need to use the rehalogenating bleach, Part B will work directly.

ironbridge-rail.jpg


It's smelly as it contains Sulphide so I usually tone outdoors. It keeps well, I made up Part B in the late 1990s :D There are other formulae, Kodak dropped their equivalent but suggest mixing two of their other toners to create something similar.

Another toner you can try is Ilford IT-2 a Hypo-Alum toner it needs ripening with Silver Nitrate or cheaper and simpler scrap prints (RC would be best).

dams.jpg


An MGIV image, the formula is here. My IT-2 must be 40 years old still works perfectly.

Just some ideas, I went down the warmtone paper route it's far easier :smile:

Ian
 

esearing

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With Ilford classic FB you can get some lovely shades from barely warm to rich brown using a combo of selenium and Thiourea toner. Nelsons gold is lovely too, but has to be used at higher temperature like Alum toner. Selenium before Thiourea is a different tone than Thiourea before Selenium. The amount of part A to part B in the toner also changes tones from golden to rich chocolates. Make lots of extra prints and experiment. I also like LPD 1:3 for a warmer tone developer and think it is well suited to a warmtone paper though is still not brown, only softer gray with more subtle gradation in the highlights rather than strong jumps between tones.
 

grainyvision

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For a long time I thought everyone in this thread was correct. Truly warmtone results on modern materials were impossible without rehal bleach or other toning methods and that I'd just have to live with the compromises that these methods came with. However, I've also always been one of those types that love to tackle what is widely regarded as impossible. So, I did a number of experimental developer formulations until finally landing on the lead of following old film developer formulas for ultra fine grain, rather than warmtone print developer formulas. PPD is pretty nasty so that was off the table for me, but other classic fine grain developers used normal developing agents but also had moderate pH, ammonium salts, amines, thiocyanate, and chloride salts. There was a lot of info about these old fine grain developers being too solvent and dissolving away image detail, so "they're only suitable for large format"... Well, prints are basically all large format, so as long as I can get a properly deep black, there is some potential there. First I made GVPX1 which worked, but was finicky for results and not suitable with many materials. Finally, I landed on the formula of GVPX2. A highly solvent MQ developer of only moderate alkalinity that is better balanced than GVPX1 and gives good results on many modern papers.

GVPX2 Formula:

* 700ml water
* "pinch" of sulfite
* 1.5g metol
* 30g sodium sulfite
* 50ml triethanolamine 99% (TEA, sourced from photographer's formulary)
* 15ml glycerol (used to reduce ammonia smell and keep ammonia in solution longer)
* 0.15g benzotriazole (can be increased to slow the developer without otherwise affecting results)
* 0.5g potassium bromide
* 1g ammonium thiocyanate
* 12g sodium metaborate
* 8g ammonium chloride
* Top to 1L with water
* Final pH ~9.75

Properties: Will smell strongly of ammonia during mixing and when being used for development. Will only smell mildly of ammonia when sitting in a tray idle. Solution is perfectly clear and has a very long shelf life. Estimated to be capable of producing 40 8x10 prints, or being left in the tray for up to 12 hours before any major change in activity. Developer will not change color when it goes off, instead it will only become slower, with weaker black levels, no ammonia smell, and a measured pH lower than 9.5. Should be put into a capped bottle between sessions. Will leave a silver scum on bottles and trays which can be easily removed using farmer's reducer

Usage: Use undiluted. Requires "seasoning" with 2-3 prints. Bottles with silver scum will work to season the developer without needing to waste paper, so always use the same bottle for this. Development time and contrast can vary with paper and exposure. Typically works best when developing "almost, but not quite" to completion with 1/4 stop or less of over exposure to compensate. 1m to 3m is the typical time. Shadows will be much more open when developed "almost" to completion rather than completely, as well as giving warmer highlight tones. Contrast can be modified seemingly in ways that can't be replicated solely by changing filtration on VC papers. Specifically midtone contrast can be modified by changing development times.

Papers tested:

* Fomaspeed 133 RC -- Skews to have somewhat cold highlights with cool brown shadows. Unique appearance
* Ilford Warmtone FB -- beautiful brown blacks, warm highlights, and subtle olive midtones.
* Ilford Coldtone FB -- Gives somewhat warm results with cool brown blacks, but black level seems to not become very deep unless developed for completion
* Ilford MGV RC -- Beautiful brown blacks, warm to almost yellow highlights, and warm brown midtones
* Ilford MGFB -- Very similar in appearance to MGV RC, but with black tones developing earlier, allowing for more contrast control by varying development time
* Fomatone Warmtone Classic FB -- Not suitable, will produce dichroic fogging. Aside from that, produces very reddish brown blacks but with highlight details etched away and a high contrast level, estimated to boost contrast by at least 1 grade.
* Kentmere RC -- Very fast to develop with only a subtle warmtone skew

Example prints, carefully scanned and color corrected for natural appearance under daylight conditions: https://imgur.com/a/SqylvIe
 

TheFlyingCamera

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If you REALLY want warmtone, eschew silver and print in palladium, develop with Potassium Oxalate at 140F (60C). Cadbury's eat your heart out.

Sticking to silver paper, get a warmtone paper and use a warmtone developer. Overexpose the print by at least a stop, then pull it early from your developer.
 

grainyvision

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If you REALLY want warmtone, eschew silver and print in palladium, develop with Potassium Oxalate at 140F (60C). Cadbury's eat your heart out.

Sticking to silver paper, get a warmtone paper and use a warmtone developer. Overexpose the print by at least a stop, then pull it early from your developer.

I mean, on that note, the warmest results I've had is using a bad batch of hand made chloride contact paper. I used it as a printing out paper( since it would develop fog) and after it emerged from the fixer it was a deep reddish leather brown. If you're making your own materials, it's a lot more involved, but you have a lot more options for controlling the tone of the result
 
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