Warmer temps upside for C-41, downside for Tri-X

Flashcam · Jun 4, 2024

As it gets warmer around here we will be able to process chromogenic film at room temperature in about a month! Cooling everything down for B&W film processing, like for T-Max or Tri-X
in the summer time is much more of a chore in the home darkroom here, unless you like lots of grain... The freezer is full of film and ice cream. Any ideas on an affordable type chiller?

Flashcam · Jun 5, 2024

Refrigerator for ice in the darkroom seems to be a good answer........

foc · Jun 5, 2024

I never have that problem where I live.

Ian Grant · Jun 5, 2024

While living in Turkey on the Aegean coast I had temperatures in the high 20ºC from March to November rising to the 30s. Tap water was always at 27ºC in that period, so I just adjusted my developments times and processed at 27ºC, and never had an issue. The temperature of all stages remained very stable with no deviations.

Ian

Romanko · Jun 5, 2024

Flashcam said:
in the summer time is much more of a chore in the home darkroom here, unless you like lots of grain

Same here. I use a cooler box (Esky) and keep several ice bricks in the freezer. I fill the cooler with water, put my chemistry bottles, the development tank with loaded film(s) and one or two ice bricks in it and wait till the water bath temperature drops 1 or 2 degrees Celsius below the target temperature. Then I remove the bricks and wait a bit more for the system to come to equilibrium. It is a chore as you said, but you can use slow developers and not worry about temperature drifts if you return the tank into the cooler after agitating.

Developing at ambient temperature is another option that I use during cooler months. I assume summers in Texas are as hot as here and developing for 1 minute at 47 degrees Celsius does not sound like a good idea to me.

mshchem · Jun 5, 2024

My darkroom is in a corner of our lower level, no windows. When it's really hot outside it's usually 68°F or cooler in the darkroom.

hoganlia · Jun 5, 2024

How apt! I took my bathroom (soon-to-be-baptised darkroom) ambience temperature (23.6ºc) this afternoon then left a glass of tapwater with the thermometre with the starting point at 21.2ºc. Three hours later it's at 21.4ºC I'm starting my printing career on Sunday when the temperature outside will be over 30ºC so my test will be oñging over the next few days as the outside temperature rises.

I'll also be keeping a close eye on this thread.....

I am learning so much on my visits here..!

hoganlia · Jun 5, 2024

Re temperatures.... when I "learnt" to develop negatives I was told that the developer always had to be 20ºc with a slight leeway for B&W but with stop and fixer, that wasn't so important. I have always tried to keep the stop and fixer as close as I can to 20ºc but without panicking too much.

As far as paper goes, is is necessary to keep stop and fixer at 20ºc as well as the developer?

john_s · Jun 5, 2024

hoganlia said:
Re temperatures.... when I "learnt" to develop negatives I was told that the developer always had to be 20ºc with a slight leeway for B&W but with stop and fixer, that wasn't so important. I have always tried to keep the stop and fixer as close as I can to 20ºc but without panicking too much.

As far as paper goes, is is necessary to keep stop and fixer at 20ºc as well as the developer?

For film, best if all processing is at a stable temperature in the recommended range, usually something like 18degC to 27degC. Higher temp means less time in developer which can be calculated or got from the tables of times.

For paper it's less critical because the rate of development is observed/checked as it proceeds. The temp of subsequent baths is also less critical because the surface of the paper is apparently less fragile. I use a heated system and I like 25degC for paper developer as it saves some time. Agfa pdfs had paper processing temps up to 30degC.

hoganlia · Jun 5, 2024

john_s said:
For film, best if all processing is at a stable temperature in the recommended range, usually something like 18degC to 27degC. Higher temp means less time in developer which can be calculated or got from the tables of times.

For paper it's less critical because the rate of development is observed/checked as it proceeds. The temp of subsequent baths is also less critical because the surface of the paper is apparently less fragile. I use a heated system and I like 25degC for paper developer as it saves some time. Agfa pdfs had paper processing temps up to 30degC.

Thanks John... that info reduces the anticiate panic somewhat... just a few days before I do my first printing and although I am feeling (semi-)confident, a few unwanted "what if"s manage to wend their ways into my thoughts. In fact I was also wondering about times. I have heard a few times that after two minutes nothing is going to change in the developer... I had decided that on my first run I would stick to that and see what happens.

George Collier · Jun 5, 2024

I keep all temps +/- 1˚F for B&W, either FP4 or HP5 with Rodinal. I have settled on 73˚F all year. I keep a small $100 fridge in the darkroom. In the summer, the tap water is around 80˚.
I keep a gallon each of tap water and distilled in the fridge, along with some small bottles of fixer (TF-5 - I use a 2 fixer scheme).
I make the developer and the final photoflo water with distilled, stop-water is tap, but at 73˚ along with everything else. (no presoak)
For wash I mix a bucket of refrigerated and tap mixed t get 73˚ and use Ilford's wash method 3 or 4 times over to be sure (and TF-5 washes out more quickly than traditional acid fixers, or so I'm told. In the winter I use a temp controlled Gravity Works film washer.
The routine is easy and times are the same all year. I determined for myself many years ago that for any film/developer combination, constant temp throughout the process results in smoother, if not finer grain.

hoganlia · Jun 5, 2024

George Collier said:
I keep all temps +/- 1˚F for B&W, either FP4 or HP5 with Rodinal. I have settled on 73˚F all year. I keep a small $100 fridge in the darkroom. In the summer, the tap water is around 80˚.
I keep a gallon each of tap water and distilled in the fridge, along with some small bottles of fixer (TF-5 - I use a 2 fixer scheme).
I make the developer and the final photoflo water with distilled, stop-water is tap, but at 73˚ along with everything else. (no presoak)
For wash I mix a bucket of refrigerated and tap mixed t get 73˚ and use Ilford's wash method 3 or 4 times over to be sure (and TF-5 washes out more quickly than traditional acid fixers, or so I'm told. In the winter I use a temp controlled Gravity Works film washer.
The routine is easy and times are the same all year. I determined for myself many years ago that for any film/developer combination, constant temp throughout the process results in smoother, if not finer grain.

My "darkroom" will be a put up and pull down job in the guest bathroom and both space and finances pose limitations. I am sure I can get the temperaturs initially to what I want... but concerned about keeping the temperature stable. Work in progress.

MattKing · Jun 5, 2024

With B&W, you can reliably use a development temperature of 24C with most film and developer combinations.
The same applies to 18C.
And of course, the intermediate temperatures work great as well.
Pick whichever is easiest to maintain/closest to ambient, and standardize on that.
If you need to work toward the warmer end, you may find yourself using higher dilutions or less active developers, in order to avoid development times that are inconveniently too short.

George Collier · Jun 5, 2024

I forgot an important thing -
The first thing I do is a make water bath of 73˚ tap water, mixing cold and tap like the wash water, then get all chem temperatures right, and place all chems into the water bath before starting (but after the film is loaded into the tank).
The water is deep enough to come just to the lid of a 2-roll Kinderman stainless steel tank. It's in a long, narrow heavy plastic container, but anything big enough will do (like a dish washing tub, etc. The room will be 80˚, but all chems will stay 73˚, and I take the tank out only for agitation, then back into the water bath.
I keep a thermometer in the water bath, and if it warms up, I add cold water, never very much. The whole thing takes an hour.
Years ago I did my film in the bathroom, hung in the shower to dry. Same regimen, and back then, I had no GW washer, so the fill and dump method was what I did.

hoganlia · Jun 5, 2024

MattKing said:
With B&W, you can reliably use a development temperature of 24C with most film and developer combinations.
The same applies to 18C.
And of course, the intermediate temperatures work great as well.
Pick whichever is easiest to maintain/closest to ambient, and standardize on that.
If you need to work toward the warmer end, you may find yourself using higher dilutions or less active developers, in order to avoid development times that are inconveniently too short.

Go figure... it's just on midnight here and I've just checked my glass of water in the bathroom... 22.8ºc... hahaha. I think I do a test with a tray tomorrow. It's more just to get me situated. Once I start work I realise the temperature will be quite different due to close space and body temperature.

I had a hell of a job keeping my negative developer stable last summer when we were getting to the 40ºc level for a number of weeks running. That's an interesting point on the dillutions..

thanks

hoganlia · Jun 5, 2024

George Collier said:
I forgot an important thing -
The first thing I do is a make water bath of 73˚ tap water, mixing cold and tap like the wash water, then get all chem temperatures right, and place all chems into the water bath before starting (but after the film is loaded into the tank).
The water is deep enough to come just to the lid of a 2-roll Kinderman stainless steel tank. It's in a long, narrow heavy plastic container, but anything big enough will do (like a dish washing tub, etc. The room will be 80˚, but all chems will stay 73˚, and I take the tank out only for agitation, then back into the water bath.
I keep a thermometer in the water bath, and if it warms up, I add cold water, never very much. The whole thing takes an hour.
Years ago I did my film in the bathroom, hung in the shower to dry. Same regimen, and back then, I had no GW washer, so the fill and dump method was what I did.

The water control bucket is what I usually do for the developing with all chemical bottles inside... then I sit them in a sous vide which I was given at the end of summer ( a bit late but...) it's a lot faster. The same principle applies up to the point whien the water surface in the developing tray is larger and a far as I can fathom, more prne to vary. Thats why I will tru to test the tray tomorrow.

hoganlia · Jun 5, 2024

OK, bedtime for me.... I wil definitey be back tomorrow to learn more!

Thanks to all of you

Maris · Jun 5, 2024

There is a case for not doing temperature control for black and white processing. Time control is better.

Temperature control (except at ambient) is a technical challenge, a chore, difficult to get precise, and unstable in its adjustment.
Time control is as easy as looking at a clock, it's precise to the second, and good clocks do not run significantly fast or slow for the few minutes of developing time.

When my darkroom is hot, say 28 Celcius, my developing time for FP4+ in Xtol is 5 minutes. When the darkroom is cold , say 18 Celcius, my developing time is 14 minutes. Both negatives come out the same.

Modern black and white films can be developed at almost any reasonable ambient temperature if the developing time is adjusted. The tradition of working at 20 Celcius or 68F is, I reckon, a historic hangover.

Romanko · Jun 5, 2024

Maris said:
Modern black and white films can be developed at almost any reasonable ambient temperature if the developing time is adjusted. The tradition of working at 20 Celcius or 68F is, I reckon, a historic hangover.

I prefer to use HC-110 dilution B at lower temperatures to avoid development times below 4 minutes. Shorter times are not recommended by Kodak and can cause uneven development. There is nothing wrong with using a more dilute developer, of course.

hoganlia · Jun 6, 2024

Maris said:
There is a case for not doing temperature control for black and white processing. Time control is better.

Temperature control (except at ambient) is a technical challenge, a chore, difficult to get precise, and unstable in its adjustment.
Time control is as easy as looking at a clock, it's precise to the second, and good clocks do not run significantly fast or slow for the few minutes of developing time.

When my darkroom is hot, say 28 Celcius, my developing time for FP4+ in Xtol is 5 minutes. When the darkroom is cold , say 18 Celcius, my developing time is 14 minutes. Both negatives come out the same.

Modern black and white films can be developed at almost any reasonable ambient temperature if the developing time is adjusted. The tradition of working at 20 Celcius or 68F is, I reckon, a historic hangover.

Interesting information Maris... I came across something a while back regarding differences in modern film and I think MattKing also mentiond this in another thread. Thanks.

hoganlia · Jun 6, 2024

Romanko said:
I prefer to use HC-110 dilution B at lower temperatures to avoid development times below 4 minutes. Shorter times are not recommended by Kodak and can cause uneven development. There is nothing wrong with using a more dilute developer, of course.

does this apply to paper as well?

MattKing · Jun 6, 2024

There are two reasons I am reluctant to try developing at temperatures above 24C.
The first is the relative lack of good manufacturers' recommendations for developing times. If you have access to the sort of experience based knowledge that Maris has, that concern is less important.
The second is that I live in one of the most temperate climates around, and I absolutely hate working when temperatures approach 30C.
Depending on where you are in Spain - a country I visited once, 45 years ago - you may be completely used to working where and when temperatures care high, and may not be bothered at all!

Melvin J Bramley · Jun 6, 2024

If your darkroom cannot sustain a 20C temperature beware of temperature creep with long developing times with dilute developers!
If its hot try filling your tank ( no film) , going through the process then checking your start and finishing temperatures!
Remaining consistent is the way to reliable negatives.

Maris · Jun 6, 2024

Romanko said:
I prefer to use HC-110 dilution B at lower temperatures to avoid development times below 4 minutes. Shorter times are not recommended by Kodak and can cause uneven development. There is nothing wrong with using a more dilute developer, of course.

The key to successful use of short developing times is to pre-soak the film in water the same temperature as the developer. This takes away the "shock" when the developer hits the film. The second part is to have the development procedure - pour developer in, agitate, pour developer out, stop in, stop out - down to a quick, smooth, reproducible routine with no hesitations or mistakes. I do this for my personal work and get good results with no failures.

Flashcam · Jun 7, 2024

hoganlia said:
Re temperatures.... when I "learnt" to develop negatives I was told that the developer always had to be 20ºc with a slight leeway for B&W but with stop and fixer, that wasn't so important. I have always tried to keep the stop and fixer as close as I can to 20ºc but without panicking too much.

As far as paper goes, is is necessary to keep stop and fixer at 20ºc as well as the developer?

As I learned from a top commercial studio, keeping the temp from start to finish to within a degree or two at most, including wash, keeps the grain as minimal as possible. It has always worked very well but is a bit more difficult without that chiller these days. I'm doing small batches now so ice cubes are great these days. Printing may not be as critical but the ice cubes still have a pretty good use.

Warmer temps upside for C-41, downside for Tri-X

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Warmer temps upside for C-41, downside for Tri-X

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