Warm Tone Paper Developers and Stains

SuzanneR · Oct 5, 2006

As I have been playing around with different warm tone developers I've noticed that it's easy to get a developer stain in the corner of the print. Either from my tongs, or my own finger. Granted, I sometimes have to lift the corner of the paper up to get the tong around it. I'm just finding that I have to be very fastidious about fresh tongs and fresh gloves with these developers. Specifically, Edwal Platinum II, and Zonal-pro HQ Warmtone.

So, two questions... what do you do to avoid this? Any tips or tricks you can share. Perhaps I should try some different tongs?

And if the stain is small, and in the corner will it hurt or cause damage down the road to the print? I've never managed to do this in the image area, so I might just trim the print? I usually just make another print, but sometimes, other than that, it's a perfectly good print, and I hate to throw it out.

TIA

Dan Henderson · Oct 5, 2006

Tongs! We don't need no steenkin' tongs!

Seriously, I've noticed stains with worm tone developer also and wondered if it was my sticky fingers. But when I mount a finished print the white borders are completely gone anyway, so I don't worry about what went in the trash can.

Dan Henderson · Oct 5, 2006

oops, that was supposed to be warm tone.

catem · Oct 5, 2006

Hi Suzanne,

With tongs, there's not much more you can do than keep them fastidiously clean, and be sure to have separate tongs for separate trays (and never go 'backwards' in the process) - but I assume you know this. If I'm really worried about a print I use my hands, lifting the paper edge-on (if that makes sense) so I don't touch the front surface of the paper at all.

You can use farmer's reducer & cotton wool to slowly & carefully remove stains but... I always use minimum half an inch margins and tend not to worry if I get a small stain, (unless possibly the print is for someone else). There again, if it's going to be mounted, I'm not sure it matters that much....I've never heard of a mark damaging a print in the future, though over-fixing can give you nasty brown prints a couple of years down the line, and if prints are next to each other an over-fixed one can contaminate a good one...

Cate

TheFlyingCamera · Oct 5, 2006

Definitely get rid of the tongs. Hands are good, or if you are chem-sensitive, nitrile gloves. Rinse thoroughly between print transfers to avoid chemical contamination. And always use trays that are large enough you can get your fingers in between the print and the sides of the tray.

Shawn Dougherty · Oct 5, 2006

I haven't used anything except amidol for sometime but... when I used to I had the same trouble. I found it it easier in the long run just to use a standard developer and tone the print later, you have more control over the process this way. I also had and continue to have better luck using my hands... of course me left hand and fingernails typically look like shit. Good Luck! Shawn

SuzanneR · Oct 5, 2006

Thanks everyone! If it's a print for myself, I worry a litte less because it'll be hidden by the mat. I've just found it a little annoying with these developers how easy it is to mar a lovely print with a brown fingerprint blob on the corner!

I go back and forth... tongs or no tongs! I'm quite careful not to use them in the wrong tray, and I usually place them on the tray so they are not sitting in the chemistry, but admittedly, my hands are way better tools than tongs at getting prints in and out of trays. I've used the tongs lately becuase the chemistry irritates my skin from time to time, and I've been trying to avoid getting too much chemistry on them!

Ah well, the things we'll do for great prints!!

Thanks again!!

Shelly Grimson · Oct 5, 2006

I think that it would be advisable to always keep the chemicals separate from your body. Latex or nitrile gloves are so cheap you shouldn't even think twice about using them. If you get used to them it becomes second nature. I always quickly wash my hands in hot water after any chemical gets on the gloves. That way it don't cross contaminate and the gloves allow hot water to be tolerated. Same as dish washing.

SuzanneR · Oct 5, 2006

Yes... I should have said in the previous post. I keep latex gloves on hand, and use them as well as the tongs. As you say, they are cheap, and I suppose I should use a fresh pair with each print as opposed to every second or third.

I find washing my hands with the latex gloves a little impractical. I'm never sure if I've dried them fully, and nothing good happens when gloves (or hands for that matter) are wet while getting out a new sheet of paper!

blansky · Oct 5, 2006

I never wear gloves because I can't feel if they are wet from one chemical or the other. I try to use my finger nails on the thumb and first finger to deal with prints.

I very rarely see any marks on the prints from my fingers or tongs. If my fingers get into chemicals I just dip it in water and dry them so I doubt if there will be much skin irritation.

For 11x14 and below I use tongs. For 16x20 and up I use tongs to initially lift the corner of the print from the chemical and then fingernails on one edge of the print and I use the other hand to hold or brace the edge or the print and don't touch the face of it.

Michael

nworth · Oct 8, 2006

I've never had any problem with either tongs or fingers (I generally use tongs). That doesn't mean that I won't have one tomorrow. But one of the best ways to prevent stains is a properly mixed stop bath. Many people just use water, thinking the acid will do bad things to their nice warm tone. Wrong! The stop bath generally has no effect on the tone and it definitely helps prevent stains. Plain water seems to be insufficient.

Bob F. · Oct 8, 2006

The only time I saw marks using Neutol WA or Ilford Warmtone developer was when I recently used Kentona for the first time. I have never got them with MGIV-FB or Kentmere Fineprint FB.

Perhaps it's an emulsion thing rather than a developer thing - or a combination?

I always use tongs except for toning, when I use tongs AND gloves - I never deliberately put skin in contact with any chemicals on general principles.

Cheers, Bob.

Mick Fagan · Oct 8, 2006

Suzanne, there is another possibility, Nova's print clip.

This is from their website:-

NOVA PRINT CLIP - This simple yet effective device holds your print firmly 1mm from the edge with two stainless pins. Print marking is almost undetectable by the naked eye and the patented design makes it easy to produce borderless prints without the need to change print drums or frames. The user-friendly design makes it easy to handle and ensures you have no contact with the chemistry. Its smooth lines ensure no liquid retention making a rinse and a light shake all that is necessary between prints.

I have a small Nova twin 8x10 print tank, which came with one of these clips. I was very impressed with the clip's ability to be used with minimal markings or infringement of one's prints.

You may know someone in your rather active area with one of these, if you do, ask them to show you how you can operate these one handed, they really are very well designed.

Just a thought.

Mick.

SuzanneR · Oct 8, 2006

nworth said:
I've never had any problem with either tongs or fingers (I generally use tongs). That doesn't mean that I won't have one tomorrow. But one of the best ways to prevent stains is a properly mixed stop bath. Many people just use water, thinking the acid will do bad things to their nice warm tone. Wrong! The stop bath generally has no effect on the tone and it definitely helps prevent stains. Plain water seems to be insufficient.

Hmmmmmm.... I've been using water lately, and this is a fairly recent problem. Water's just so easy!! Back to stop bath, I think.

And those clips sound interesting, Mick. Thanks for the tip!

jeroldharter · Oct 8, 2006

The Nova clips are nice (and essential with a Nova tank) but they are a little small for some double weight fiber based papers like Zone VI for example. Sometimes I have a little trouble jamming the paper in without crimping it, especially large sizes like 16 x 20 for which I usually use 2 clips.

Dan Henderson · Oct 8, 2006

Suzanne Revy said:
Hmmmmmm.... I've been using water lately, and this is a fairly recent problem. Water's just so easy!! Back to stop bath, I think.

And those clips sound interesting, Mick. Thanks for the tip!

I recently switched to alkaline fixer, and therefore stopped using stop bath...the little voice in my head wonders aloud how that works out...*shaking head violently*

anyway, I've not experienced more staining with a water stop vs. stop bath.

timeUnit · Oct 9, 2006

Suzanne Revy said:
I go back and forth... tongs or no tongs! I'm quite careful not to use them in the wrong tray, and I usually place them on the tray so they are not sitting in the chemistry, but admittedly, my hands are way better tools than tongs at getting prints in and out of trays.

If you are going back and forth and do not wash your hands or tongs thoroughly I willling to bet that's the culprit.

I've gotten fixer or stop from my fingers on a print before getting it into the developer, and sure enough, there's an ugly stain in the corner of the print.

I use tongs, one for developer, one for stop, one for fixer. Never use the stop tong in the developer, etc. Sometimes I need to use my hands, and I'm always sure to wash and dry them after that.

I haven't had any problems with stains since I started doing this.

catem · Oct 9, 2006

Suzanne Revy said:
Hmmmmmm.... I've been using water lately, and this is a fairly recent problem. Water's just so easy!! Back to stop bath, I think.

And those clips sound interesting, Mick. Thanks for the tip!

I have to say, in my experience, stop bath can often be the culprit. As mentoned above if you inadvertently 'go backwards' with your tongs you are bound to get problems. Leaving the stop out is one less possible chemical contamination, and using water is one more possibility for a better rinse. Most stains in my experience come from fixer or stop (tongs or fingers) or just dirty tongs, (or damp fingers on undeveloped paper) rather than developer.
Cate

nworth · Oct 10, 2006

FirePhoto said:
I recently switched to alkaline fixer, and therefore stopped using stop bath...the little voice in my head wonders aloud how that works out...*shaking head violently*

anyway, I've not experienced more staining with a water stop vs. stop bath.

Very careful workers have much better luck than us klutzes.

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