Want to restart Fidelity film holder manufacturing?

Ken Nadvornick · Jul 8, 2014

Here's an oddball eBay auction that popped up in one of my saved searches. The seller claims it's the full and complete manufacturing plans, including production blueprints and even pencil sketches, for all Fidelity Elite film holders. He says the plans cover 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14, 14x17, 9x12, and others.

Ended eBay auction: FIDELITY ELITE ORIGINAL FILM HOLDER BLUE PRINTS LARGE FORMAT

According to the description the plans came direct from the now closed Fidelity Manufacturing facility. He also claims that because Fidelity purchased Lisco, there are Lisco plans included as well. It looks like everything is contained in two large cardboard boxes.

I have no connection whatsoever with the seller (whose ID doesn't appear to be directly connected to Calumet, but who knows?). In fact, I didn't even see the search email in my inbox until after the auction had ended with a reserve-not-met and a high bid (out of only 3 bids) of just US$3.25. Apparently the seller ended the auction because the item was no longer available.

So does anybody want to have a crack at resurrecting production at a cottage industry level? My understanding (from a Calumet rep in response to a direct question over the phone by me) was that the film holder manufacturing was already basically a one-man show, until the fellow retired.

Ken

Dr Croubie · Jul 8, 2014

I'm sure there's enough engineering knowledge on here to not even need the original blueprints.
What's in a film holder? A centre bit, two rails each side to hold the film in, two indents running the length to hold the darkslide, a bit that flaps out to help load the film, and a bit of felt.
I'm sure we could get the darkslide and rails punched the right size for bugger all, and 3D print the rest in some decent-quality plastic.
Too bad there's not much market for them in 4x5, too many second-hands. 8x10s and the huge/weird/pano shapes might get up to $100 each, would that recover any costs for a large-scale operation? Anyone wanna kickstarter with me?

AgX · Jul 8, 2014

The moulding tools would be more interesting than those blue prints. Furthermmore, looking at heavy used Fidelity holders I got the quality of design varies strongly between models.

snapguy · Jul 8, 2014

findin

I keep finding 4x5 and larger film holders at flea markets for a few dollars each so I can't see if there is a real need for new ones.

DREW WILEY · Jul 8, 2014

Anyone with ten thousand bucks to set up a small shop with modern CNC etc equip could go into mfg of these things. The question would be
whether it would be worth it. You still need to pay yourself. And you'd probably still have to injection-mould certain things in volume to make it economical. Any serious cabinet shop could make their own wooden ones, or fabricate phenolics. There are some tricks keeping materials from warping. But none of this is rocket science.

Ken Nadvornick · Jul 8, 2014

Well, the question really was tongue-in-cheek. But since Calumet appears to have been in existential damage control when they shut down the film holder manufacturing operation, who knows?

There does seem to still be a residual small demand for these things. Used Elite 8x10s in good shape still seem to fetch around US$100 each these days. Toyo still offers their versions new. The Toyo 8x10 Double Cut Holder is listed at US$209.99 each by Freestyle. (And at this moment is also sold out.)

I suppose the things needed might include the intellectual property assets (the two cardboard boxes in the auction, if they are complete), a manufacturing infrastructure (the tooling, if it's still available, and a place to put it), financial backing (US$10,000 really isn't much in the overall scheme of things, but it's probably not enough either), and most importantly, a sustainable market over time to at least return the initial investment, plus put some food on the table for the investor.

But if Calumet was correct in their answers to my questions, it was already scaled to a one-man operation when they owned it. So maybe it's not so far fetched?

Any retirees out there with a manufacturing background, some time on their hands, an unused shed out back, and a passing knowledge of how Kickstarter works?

(Note three of these above, not just one...)

Ken

AgX · Jul 8, 2014

I suppose the things needed might include the intellectual property assets (the two cardboard boxes in the auction, if they are complete)

As said, not all Fidelity design are brilliant. One would have to copy the blue prints for toolmaking anyway, why not copy actual samples or design them completely new?

CatLABS · Jul 8, 2014

AgX said:
As said, not all Fidelity design are brilliant. One would have to copy the blue prints for toolmaking anyway, why not copy actual samples or design them completely new?

Any and all patents pertaining to film holders are LONG expired....

pdeeh · Jul 8, 2014

Surely simplest to dismantle one, get the parts 3D scanned and then use 3D printing to manufacture ...

StoneNYC · Jul 8, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
Well, the question really was tongue-in-cheek. But since Calumet appears to have been in existential damage control when they shut down the film holder manufacturing operation, who knows?

There does seem to still be a residual small demand for these things. Used Elite 8x10s in good shape still seem to fetch around US$100 each these days. Toyo still offers their versions new. The Toyo 8x10 Double Cut Holder is listed at US$209.99 each by Freestyle. (And at this moment is also sold out.)

I suppose the things needed might include the intellectual property assets (the two cardboard boxes in the auction, if they are complete), a manufacturing infrastructure (the tooling, if it's still available, and a place to put it), financial backing (US$10,000 really isn't much in the overall scheme of things, but it's probably not enough either), and most importantly, a sustainable market over time to at least return the initial investment, plus put some food on the table for the investor.

But if Calumet was correct in their answers to my questions, it was already scaled to a one-man operation when they owned it. So maybe it's not so far fetched?

Any retirees out there with a manufacturing background, some time on their hands, an unused shed out back, and a passing knowledge of how Kickstarter works?

(Note three of these above, not just one...)

Ken

Yea but don't the toyo smell bad? And aren't the Chamonix similar in price?

John Koehrer · Jul 8, 2014

How long would it take to make a 4X5 holder with a 3D printer?
I doubt the dark slide would be printable economically.

Pricing? There's ALWAYS someone that has to have NEW stuff. $200.00 today $300.00 in a couple of years.
Consider that a dollar buys less and less. It's not actual cost rising it's buying power decreasing. Consider a living
wage in 1900 to 2000.

Nothing like inflation to keep the economy going.

Wonder what Calumet did with the original equipment?

DREW WILEY · Jul 8, 2014

Just making something on a 3D printer wouldn't equate to understanding the material science of what actually performs well in the long run.
Darkslides would be the easiest thing to make. But even there, you need to know your materials first.

holmburgers · Jul 9, 2014

The real value of these is definitely not in reproducing the holders for profit, in my opinion. The only value I can see is a historical one.

I've forwarded this auction to the Technology Curator at the George Eastman House...

BrianShaw · Jul 9, 2014

"This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available. "

frobozz · Jul 9, 2014

BrianShaw said:
"This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available. "

The usual translation for that is "someone messaged me through ebay with a nice offer to just end the auction early and sell it to them directly, so I did."

Duncan

Ken Nadvornick · Jul 9, 2014

frobozz said:
The usual translation for that is "someone messaged me through ebay with a nice offer to just end the auction early and sell it to them directly, so I did."

Duncan

That was my sense as well. In the past in other unrelated auctions I have myself been that someone who made the "nice offer". And got the items I was after.

When Calumet was finally going under someone purchased what appeared to be the final large remaining stock of already manufactured 4x5 Elite holders. I think I know who that was. So somebody out there felt there was still a market for those at a profit.

Ken

DREW WILEY · Jul 9, 2014

4X5 holders are pretty abundant. But clean 5x7 or 11x14 holders are getting scarce, so can fetch a good price. Also 8x10 holders hold their
value if still in pristine condition. Quite a few people still need these. The really big ULF ones are more likely to be limited production new things anyway. You can't really carry around many of, say, 16x20 or 20x24 holders. Something that's old and warped has essentially zero practical
value, so you have to cull jillions of those kind of things off the "available" list immediately, if you are actually shooting film and not just
collecting antiques.

Dr Croubie · Jul 9, 2014

John Koehrer said:
How long would it take to make a 4X5 holder with a 3D printer?
I doubt the dark slide would be printable economically.

I just applied for a job as a 3D printer technician at my old Uni. The pay ain't great (well, it's about as good as I'm getting now, which ain't great for my 2 degrees, but it's liveable), but I'd be willing to even take a paycut if it meant I could get to play with a metal / ceramic 3D printer after hours. And this thread had 'nothing' to do with it.

Mark Fisher · Jul 12, 2014

A 3D printer isn't great for precision things that need to slide and not leak light. That said, a table saw and a couple of router set ups could probably do what is needed. It could make very nice ones in wood or ABS for a reasonable cost. Isn't that basically what S&S does?

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 12, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Yea but don't the toyo smell bad?

Toyo really makes the best plastic holders. However they smell when brand new, they seem to be made to tighter tolerances and they load and unload more easily.

It wouldn't be too hard for someone to make a functional filmholder, but there are subtle design improvements that make some better than others.

Wayne · Jul 12, 2014

Ektar smells too. Holy poo, did it smell when I open the box of 4x5 last night. Blehhh.

StoneNYC · Jul 12, 2014

Wayne said:
Ektar smells too. Holy poo, did it smell when I open the box of 4x5 last night. Blehhh.

I change in a dark bag so I wouldn't know... Lol

Dr Croubie · Jul 12, 2014

I don't remember it smelling last time I did some, but I just mixed up a fresh batch of Tetenal 3-bath E6. Mixing the two parts of the CD together, I got a very distinct whiff of Eau de Poisson Morte.

Curt · Jul 13, 2014

What? No body ever had kids; i.e. Babies?

pdeeh · Jul 14, 2014

How do you make film holders out of babies?

Want to restart Fidelity film holder manufacturing?

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