Want to avoid backing paper problems: How 'safe' to use out of date 120 film that's been refrigerated?

[logan2z]

I've been shooting a lot of 35mm film over the past year and now I find myself with a bunch of Ilford FP4+ in 120 in my refrigerator that has gone out of date. The oldest is dated 01/24, the newest is 08/24.

I know that backing paper problems seem to be more common in out of date film so I'm wondering if I should risk using this film on what I might consider 'important' shoots, or if it's likely to be fine given that it's not that far beyond the expiration date and it's been refrigerated since I purchased it. I'd hate to spend a lot of time shooting photos only to find that they've been ruined by issues with the backing paper.

Can anyone with recent experience using refrigerated but out of date FP4+ comment on whether or not they've had backing paper issues?

 

[BrianShaw]

I'd have to go into the refrigerator and look at the "expiration" date, but I've recently shot with FP4+ that was older than yours.... and no backing paper problems.

 

[loccdor]

It will very likely be fine, but why not shoot a test roll before the very important shoot? A good excuse to get some exercise anyhow.

For what it's worth, I've shot 10 year expired room-temperature-stored FP4+ and it worked fine at box speed, maybe just needed +1/3 stop.

 

[K-G]

If it is a really important shoot, I would recommend you to get fresh film. With expiration dates in 2024, I think the films were produced after that Ilford/Harman took actions to reduce risk for mottling. I think the films can be OK for personal and/or experimental work. You can always send a mail to Ilford and ask if your emulsion numbers are at risk or if they are after the improvement steps. They use to be very helpful. I enclose a link where they write about the problems.

Karl-Gustaf

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/updated-120-roll-film-statement/

 

[Sanug]

Before a couple of months, I developed a FP4-120 which was 1 year after expiration date and has been stored in a cool but wet basement. The film was without any defects and came perfectly good.

You should take care to give the film enough time to warm up after taking it out of the fridge. Do not open the sealing until the film has reached room temperature, otherwise you may encounter serious problems with condensing water.

 

[MattKing]

it's been refrigerated since I purchased it.

How long before the expiration date did you purchase it?
Did you purchase it from a big retailer, or from the proverbial "guy with a pickup truck in the Walmart parking lot"?

 

[logan2z]

How long before the expiration date did you purchase it?
Did you purchase it from a big retailer, or from the proverbial "guy with a pickup truck in the Walmart parking lot"?

Not easy for me to determine which roll was purchased when since they were purchased from different vendors. But all were purchased from 'big' retailers like B&H, Freestyle and Glass Key (while Glass Key is relatively small, they're bigger than a guy with a pickup truck in the Walmart parking lot ). It looks like most were purchased in 2023 or late 2022.

 

[logan2z]

Before a couple of months, I developed a FP4-120 which was 1 year after expiration date and has been stored in a cool but wet basement. The film was without any defects and came perfectly good.

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[logan2z]

You can always send a mail to Ilford and ask if your emulsion numbers are at risk or if they are after the improvement steps.

That's a good idea, I'll reach out to Ilford and see what they say. They've always been helpful when I've reached out in the past.

 

[logan2z]

I'd have to go into the refrigerator and look at the "expiration" date, but I've recently shot with FP4+ that was older than yours.... and no backing paper problems.

Great, thanks.

 

[cmacd123]

I did play with some 20 year old FP4, (not plus) and while the film held up, in places the emusion stuck to he backing paper. the foil was still sealed when I got it, But I suspect it had encountered a few freeze thaw cycles.

 

[250swb]

https://www.ilfordphoto.com/updated-120-roll-film-statement/

 

[destroya]

i have used film that has been in deep freeze for many years and never had any baking paper issues. the only issues I had was with tmax 400 which had nothing to do with how the film was stored and the rollei retro 80/400 which had moisture issues. if you freeze that film, no not refreeze them as that causes the issues (at least from my findings). stopped shooting those films.

i have shot apx 25 25 years expired and no backing paper issues at all.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

2024? That is recent stuff! A friend sent me some 1985 FP4, which I passed on to a friend here in town. No issues at all:

https://stevenlawrencepictures.com/2024/11/10/ilford-fp4-1985-nisqually-state-park-november-8/

I am down to the last 4 rolls of 120 Panatomic-X from 1989. They still show no fog or any other problems. i expose at EI = 25.

https://worldofdecay.blogspot.com/2024/12/trains-through-chehalis-washington.html

 

[K-G]

2024? That is recent stuff! A friend sent me some 1985 FP4, which I passed on to a friend here in town. No issues at all:

https://stevenlawrencepictures.com/2024/11/10/ilford-fp4-1985-nisqually-state-park-november-8/

I am down to the last 4 rolls of 120 Panatomic-X from 1989. They still show no fog or any other problems. i expose at EI = 25.

https://worldofdecay.blogspot.com/2024/12/trains-through-chehalis-washington.html

Back in the old days, both Kodak and Ilford could make their own backing paper and they knew how to make it safe. When the use of analog film went down, that wasn't possible any more, and the production had to be left to an external partner. Obviously some of the knowledge of how to make paper got lost in the transition. Hopefully the safety standards have been restored by now.

Karl-Gustaf

 

[DREW WILEY]

I recently had my first mottling issue from thawed TMY400. It was from that brief interval when a substitute backing paper was used, prior to the current shiny version. Fortunately, it was just a roll test, with nothing really important on it. Still older roll film, prior to any of these issues, like my little frozen stash of Acros, has been just fine. All my TMX100 is the new version, and shot within a reasonable period of time, so no issues there either, or on any of my frozen Ektar color 120 film, which has the new backing too.

But I haven't been shooting any Ilford roll film lately, and have none in the freezer. And I surmise that the new II version of Acros, which is finished and spooled by Harman, shares the same backing paper as Ilford films. It has their reels, not the deluxe former Fuji ones, which were easier to insert. No big worry. I only shoot Acros II occasionally, so have no reason to hoard it in the freezer like I do with sheet film.

 

[Pieter12]

I don't refrigerate or freeze B&W film, just keep it in a cooler. The only times I have had backing paper problems with Ilford 120 was when it was left in the camera for many months.

 

[retina_restoration]

Always expose and develop a test roll of a 120 film you're unsure of, before you use that batch for anything important!

 

[MattKing]

Back in the old days, both Kodak and Ilford could make their own backing paper and they knew how to make it safe. When the use of analog film went down, that wasn't possible any more, and the production had to be left to an external partner. Obviously some of the knowledge of how to make paper got lost in the transition. Hopefully the safety standards have been restored by now.

Karl-Gustaf

Of equal importance, the films have changed a lot since then, and the available inks have changed a lot since then, and printing techniques have changed a lot since than, and available forms of paper have changed a lot since then, and film distribution networks have changed a lot since then., etc., etc.
It wasn't a loss of knowledge that increased the incidence of problems, it is the shifting sands of a rapidly changing environment and how those changes impact the complex interactions between film emulsions - which are designed to be incredibly sensitive - and all the things that go into a very complex product like backing paper.
Among other things, backing paper needs to be very good at blocking light, while being flexible, resistant of static electricity issues, dimensionally be very accurate and very stable, be thicker in the middle than at the edges, have inked (or other material) images on it, and while having all these properties, be capable of being manufactured at a cost that is reasonable, in the relatively small volumes (now) that the current market supports.
Kodak, for one, had all the old knowledge at hand. They just needed a whole bunch of not yet discovered knowledge in order for the available paper manufacturers to make modern papers, using currently available machinery, techniques and materials, at competitive prices.

 

[Taylor Nankervis]

I know that backing paper problems seem to be more common in out of date film so I'm wondering if I should risk using this film on what I might consider 'important' shoots, or if it's likely to be fine given that it's not that far beyond the expiration date and it's been refrigerated since I purchased it. I'd hate to spend a lot of time shooting photos only to find that they've been ruined by issues with the backing paper.

Backing paper problems were common with new film as well as film in storage.
High and persistent humidity was spoken of back when backing paper was "impressing" frame numbers and lines on film, as was the ink used. Films now have a glossy/waxy finish to them — a benign but valuable improvement. If the film you have will be subject to mission critical application, it is best practice to use one or two rolls, across all likely lighting conditions, process each and critically evaluate for artefactual evidence of things like mottling and imprint.

 

[Prest_400]

During 2024 I have shot and developed 1-2 year expired Delta 400 and HP5. No problems. At that time I did not even refrigerate them. However, it's not FP4 or Delta 100, the latter of which I did get mottling on a 2020 expired roll that I kept at room temperature.

If it's a large batch do a test roll and see.

How long before the expiration date did you purchase it?
Did you purchase it from a big retailer, or from the proverbial "guy with a pickup truck in the Walmart parking lot"?

OT but I like your latter sentence Like local auction site guy that found film somewhere in an old drawer and people still pay fresh prices. I literally have put my hands on the head seeing the 2015-20 Kodak 120 being sold that way, knowing or not knowing it was the period when they were prone to backing paper issues.

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

For a slow black and white film, I consider a frozen roll dated somewhere within the current calendar year to be nearly as good as unexpired.

That's not to say that I wouldn't buy fresh film for something important-just as I did this past weekend despite having made an effort to move a bunch of 2024-expired film to the front of the freezer to remind me to shoot it-but really I wouldn't expect an issue.

I have also never first-hand experienced the backing paper problems other than on film so old that shooting it was more an experiment than anything , but that's also with full disclosure that I took a bit of a hiatus from photography in general and didn't buy any film from about 2010-201t5 and I think that was peak time for the issue from what I remember reading.

As a side note, though, as much as I want to support my local guys, sometimes its hard when it comes to film. I relocated a few years ago(I REALLY need to update my location...) and am still getting to know the local camera store. They do cold store all their color film, but B&W is out. I was in there a few weeks ago and bought a box of Tri-X. I just needed the film(and I've already shot most of it so this is a moot point) and didn't look at the expiration, but noticed later it was 1/2025. The store I dealt with back in Kentucky would have probably called that short dated and charged me 75% regular price for it.

Since then I've made a big order with B&H, something I do a few times a year(although it's a little alarming what the cost of a ~50 roll order of film is these days, even though this was mostly 120 and mostly B&W and C-41) and the Tri-X I ordered is late 2026/early 2027 expiration. That's a lot more comfortable for me.

OT but I like your latter sentence Like local auction site guy that found film somewhere in an old drawer and people still pay fresh prices. I literally have put my hands on the head seeing the 2015-20 Kodak 120 being sold that way, knowing or not knowing it was the period when they were prone to backing paper issues.

A couple of years ago, I was cleaning out my car and a 5 roll(120) box of Provia 100F slid out from under the seat. It had expired in 2018 and I know I bought it fresh, but I have no idea how long it had been in there.

I put it up on Ebay, $9.99 starting bid, with full disclosure of what had happened, just saying I knew it had spent some 100º summers and some 0º winters there, but didn't know how many. I said I guaranteed the film to NOT function as expected, but that I could not guarantee what the results would be.

I had a few people message me saying I'd given them a good laugh and that it was one of the most honest Ebay descriptions they'd ever read, but in the end the box sold for something like $40. At the time it was around $70/box at B&H and was usually in stock.

 

[david schaller]

I just developed this roll a couple of days ago. It was shot a couple of years ago, and I can’t easily go back and reshoot. The mottling problems can’t be remedied by a free roll of film.

 

[Agulliver]

looking back last night at some rolls I shot in 2019, there's one roll of FP4+ which exhibits a little mottling which I hadn't taken notice of before. It's "just" holiday photos so I wasn't especially critical of the outcome. But that would have been within date when I shot it. Probably from the time when Ilford had issues.

I would think that the specific batches from those times which are known to have problems should be avoided for anything like serious photos even if fridged/frozen.

For films manufactured since the problems have been solved, I'd still advise some caution but I've been shooting Delta 3200 this year which expired in February 2024 and was frozen until September 2024 without any problems. Decided to use it up before it hit 12 months over it's date. I even pushed one roll to 12,800.

 

[Romanko]

If that was 1924 I would have been worried. FP4+ refrigerated in factory packaging should be as new. As a precaution put the film in a zip-lock and remove from the fridge a few hours before loading it into a camera.