Voigtlander Experiences?

Tom Hoskinson · Nov 24, 2006

snegron, you asked:

Tom Hoskinson, do you currently use a handheld meter with your R3? I noticed that the prices on used R3's is tempting and not so out of budget for me. It might pay to consider this option together with a handheld meter.

My R3A and My R3M both have excellent built-in meters. The R3A has autoexposure capability. The R3M has only manually controlled exosure.

I usually carry a Pentax spotmeter and I use that when the lighting situation requires it.

matti · Nov 24, 2006

snegron said:
Matti, I would be really curious to hear the story about the tree!

Hi,
It's quite complicated, actually.
I was moving my newly built 36 ft sailing boat to a new yard (www.sylinnea.com). And the tree (that was going to be planed down to a free standing mast of a chinese junk rig) was secured on deck. Or actually NOT secured ennough as the swell from a passing ferry rocked the boat. As people into hydrodynamics know, a sailing boat without a heavy mast stepped rolls a lot. My father had put my Voightländer R2 with a 35 mm Color Skopar just beside the mast, so when it shifted, it landed right on the camera. Luckily my father had an insurance that actually covered his clumsyness. I think about 200 kg landed on the camera, pushed in the lens into the body and cracked the viewfinder. Probably the interior of the camera was totally destroyed, as the repair people couldn't do anything to save the camera or lens. I was quite impressed the body itself was totally unharmed, though.

Concerning the choice of camera for your project, I think a rangefinder might be a really good idea. I havn't actually tested it, but I think I could handhold my Leica at longer times than my Nikon FM2. It is also easier to focus in low light situations. And the focussing itself is quite a bit faster as well. These things would also apply to a current Voightländer. I did like the viewfinder on the R2 a lot.

/matti

Ole · Nov 24, 2006

matti said:
Hi,
It's quite complicated, actually.
I was moving my newly built 36 ft sailing boat to a new yard (www.sylinnea.com).

Nice boat!

matti · Nov 24, 2006

Thank's Ole. We have some interior stuff left to do.
/matti

Ole said:
Nice boat!

Eric Rose · Nov 24, 2006

I've posted a couple of Bessa pics in the Standard gallery for your viewing pleasure LOL.

kivis · Dec 1, 2006

snegron said:
Thanks for all the responses! I guess I should have elaborated a bit more about my intended use. I will be working on an experimental project soon in which I will be interviewing several families and recording their everyday life. I currently own Nikon SLR's (a trusty and beautiful F with FTN finder, F2A, F3HP, FM2, and several prime and zoom lenses). The only reason I was thinking about a rangefinde is because I would like an unoticeable/unobtrussive camera, a camera that won't stand out or draw too much attention. The shots will be taken in settings where these people work, eat, worship, etc. They will be aware of the camera, but I don't want to draw attention from people surrounding them (somewhat candid). I feel that if I use any of my smaller SLR's, like the FM2 or the F2A, they will stand out. I want to look like someone taking a picture, not a photographer (stereotype photographer with bulky SLR, big lenses, visible from several hundred feet away).

I thought also of a rangefinder because I want high quality optics as well. Most of the shots I have in mind will require a 35mm and maybe 85mm focal length lenses. I have thoght abot a used M3 or such, but I am really afraid of getting a used Leica for several reasons.

First, I have never owned one so I don't know what to look for (I know what a good Nikon F is supposed to look like and perform like, so if I got a lemon Nikon F, I would know).

Second, I have noticed that Leica users tend to hold on to their gear longer and put their cameras through several thousand rolls. Although a highly used camera is a risk whether it's a rangefinder or an SLR, it hurts less to have a $300.00 Nikon F die than a $1,200.00 M4 die on me.

Third, how will I know hich used Leica to get? Which will be a reliable picture taker at a relatively decent price?

Check out IMHO the definite Leica Buying Guide: http://www.cameraquest.com/mguide.htm
BTW I am a happy Bessa R3M owner. no problems at all.

kivis · Dec 1, 2006

I also secretly love Old Nikons.

PHOTOTONE · Dec 1, 2006

The reason the Cosina/Voigtlander rangefinder cameras are inexpensive compared to Leica is that Cosina makes mass market SLR's from the same building block components that form the basis for much of the internal structure of the rangefinder Cosina/Voigtlander cameras. The Nikon FM10, the Vivitar SLR's, Cosina's own Voigtlander SLR's, and possibly other brands, are all made by Cosina using the same Copal shutters, film transport mechanisms, wind levers, and various other internal bits. By designing their rangefinder cameras to use these "off the shelf" components they can make and sell a relatively low volume line of rangefinder cameras and very reasonable costs. The Voigtlander rangefinder cameras are very reliable and reasonably durable and have no structural weaknesses that I am aware of.

Andy K · Dec 1, 2006

I have an R3M anniversary kit with the collapsible 50/2. I bought it from Robert White. The first they sent had a misaligned RF patch and the framelines were not square with the camera, so no matter how careful I was the horizon was tilted in all my shots. So I called Robert White and they replaced it. The second also had framelines which were not square with the camera, so that went back too.
To make sure it did not happen again, Ken at Robert White went through all their stock of R3Ms, all were the same, misaligned framelines. In fact it turned out my original camera was the least bad of the batch. So he sent my original camera back to Japan for complete recalibration of the RF and to have the framelines sorted.
I now have a perfect R3M.
I am not usually a fussy customer, but for £600 I want a perfect camera. I cannot fault the service of Robert White and their staff, who were patient, polite and extremely helpful throughout the whole process. I am, however, less than impressed with Cosina's quality control.

rjas · Dec 1, 2006

Leica M's really aren't as out of reach as you think they are. Contact a good dealer in New York, I just purchased a 1996 M6 for a few hundred more than a new bessa.

After reading a few posts about problems with mis-aligned bessa rangefinders I just decided to spend a bit more. Plus you have the benefit of knowing that most Leica users are fondlers. I have never seen a beat up M6 or M7. It's going to be very liberating scratching my name with a dull knife into mine. I imagine I'll be able to hear collector's scream in pain around the world!

rjas · Dec 1, 2006

Eric Rose said:
You can purchase a bunch of Bessa's, wear them out and chuck them for the price of one Leica.

Or you can purchase one Leica, and use it for the rest of your life? Having worked retail (Ughhh) for awhile, I've never understood the mentality of people choosing the cheaper option, and even saying that they might as well buy 2 or 3 of those instead of the higher priced but better product. Think of all that wasted material in the landfills....

Andy K · Dec 1, 2006

Ps. I really enjoy using the R3M and am glad I stuck with it rather than accepting one of the several offers from Robert White of my money back. I also bloody LOVE the Apo Lanthar 90mm I bought as part of the deal. An outstanding lens! See attached neg scans.

Ole · Dec 1, 2006

I thought I'd said so already, but I hadn't...

I've got a Bessa-L and a Bessa-T, and love both cameras. With a really wide lens, the little L is just wonderful!

This one - (there was a url link here which no longer exists) - was shot with the Bessa-L and the 21mm Color-Skopar. A great combination.

Andy K · Dec 1, 2006

Nice shot Ole. Great tones and texture! What is it? A close up of Bender's ass?

Ole · Dec 1, 2006

There are certainly some "waste products" involved, but as it says in the gallery it's the exhaust manifold of an offshore drilling rig. Not what it looks like at all.

rfshootist · Dec 1, 2006

snegron said:
What can I expect from a Voigtlander Rangefinder? Why are they so inexpensive compared to Leica and others? Is it a reliable camera?

I own and use a R and a L since 2001 and I never had any issues. The cameras work fine and precisely.The shutter is louder than an M6, but not as loud as one could expect it to be after having read the comments of M6 owners . I've worked with an M6 too for a while. The M6 is NOT a quiet camera.
The CV advantage is 1/125 flashsync and a shutter which cannot get burned by the sunlight.
The VF/RF is better than the M6 VF, because it has not the white out prob of the RF patch and of the the framelines too. As Eric said, the smaller weight is another advantage.
I own a 25, Nok 50 and a 75, and all of them are simply superb, on par with the Leica lenses. From friends I know the results of almost all other lenses , and those are all top performers too. And I know the results of many Leica lenses. The difference is a matter of taste, not of performance.
Actually neither the camera nor the lenses are cheap, not at all in the sense of cheaply made and not cheap in the sense of little money.
A Leica makes CV look so however, because it is totally overpriced, even if one can admit that it is built with much more effort.
Only for a part of the CV-Leica price gap you get more built quality and QM, most of the gap is paid for a 50 yo ineffective hand production process executed in a country with very high labour costs.

Knowing that even Leica M bodies ,especially those built during the last 10years and also the lenses partly had pretty annoying quality probs I never thought about switching over to Leica.It's the opposite thing. The longer I use that CV stuff the more I like it.

So who likes the stable feeling these brass bricks give him should buy a M6 or M7 and pay the price. Who does not need it has more fun with the CVs. Or with a ZI, if one is not contented with the haptic experience of a CV. It's finder to me seems to be the best RF at the time and the body feels super stable but not too heavy.

Regards,
Bertram

C A Sugg · Dec 2, 2006

PHOTOTONE said:
The reason the Cosina/Voigtlander rangefinder cameras are inexpensive compared to Leica is that Cosina makes mass market SLR's from the same building block components that form the basis for much of the internal structure of the rangefinder Cosina/Voigtlander cameras. The Nikon FM10, the Vivitar SLR's, Cosina's own Voigtlander SLR's, and possibly other brands, are all made by Cosina using the same Copal shutters, film transport mechanisms, wind levers, and various other internal bits. By designing their rangefinder cameras to use these "off the shelf" components they can make and sell a relatively low volume line of rangefinder cameras and very reasonable costs. The Voigtlander rangefinder cameras are very reliable and reasonably durable and have no structural weaknesses that I am aware of.

Was this also the basis for the Olympus OM 2000? I have one. Though I hands down prefer the OM2S, I haven't had any problems with the 2000, except that I don't think it has quite the mirror dampening as the higher grade Olympus made bodies. Then again, mirror shock's not exactly a problem here.

Charles

Lee L · Dec 2, 2006

C A Sugg said:
Was this also the basis for the Olympus OM 2000? I have one.

I've seen a number of reliable reports that the OM 2000 was a Cosina camera, very much like the Nikon FM-10 and several other cameras.

Lee

Jeffrey A. Steinberg · Dec 2, 2006

I have a Mamiya M7 and a Leica M7 and I just love the R3A I just got. The price is right, you can throw it around and not worry aout a $3,000+ camera and the lenses are stunning (even on my Leica). At $569, is a bargin and I expect more from Mr. Kobiyashi. He is single-handedly bringing ack 35mm rangefinders.

I got my from www.cameraquest. It came in about 3 days. I was amazed. I had a hard time between the R2A and the R3a and decided on the 1:1 finder, the only one on a 35mm rangefinder.

--Jeffrey

Biogon Bill · Dec 3, 2006

Jeffrey A. Steinberg said:
you can throw it around and not worry aout a $3,000+ camera.
--Jeffrey

I'd be careful about how I throw it around if I wanted the rangefinder to stay properly aligned.

snegron · Dec 3, 2006

Biogon Bill said:
I'd be careful about how I throw it around if I wanted the rangefinder to stay properly aligned.

I have never owned a rangefinder. Are they as tough as an SLR? Are they more fragile when it comes to daily knocks and pings?

rfshootist · Dec 3, 2006

Biogon Bill said:
I'd be careful about how I throw it around if I wanted the rangefinder to stay properly aligned.

And this is valid for EVERY RF camera, no matter which brand.

Bertram

elekm · Dec 3, 2006

If you want to shoot with an 85mm (or something in that range), see if you can try a Bessa with an 85mm lens. The Bessa rangefinder base is quite narrow, and you might have some focusing issues -- it's one of those things that you need to try for yourself.

Depending on how much money you plan to spend, you could step up in price to the Zeiss Ikon, which has a wider rangefinder base that will provide better focusing accuracy with longer focal lengths.

Its shutter is roughly between a Bessa and a Leica in terms of volume. A very well made camera.

Ole · Dec 4, 2006

elekm said:
If you want to shoot with an 85mm (or something in that range), see if you can try a Bessa with an 85mm lens. The Bessa rangefinder base is quite narrow, and you might have some focusing issues -- it's one of those things that you need to try for yourself.

The Bessa-T seems to have no problems with a Jupiter-9 85mm f:2. Focussing distances agree to within millimeters with my FED-2 (wide baseline).

kivis · Dec 20, 2006

snegron said:
Thanks for the feedback! I wish there were a place her in Florida where I could see and compare both cameras.

As far as size and noise factor, how does a Voigtlander or M6 compare to an SLR like a Nikon FM2?

Totally different, smaller and quieter

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