Voigtlander Bessa's (RF or II)

I'm considering a Voigtlander Bessa RF/II or a Zeiss Super Ikonta III/IV

How is the build quality and durability among the two? All things equal, are the equivalent in this regard?

All things being equal, I significantly preferred my Zeiss Super Ikonta III to my Bessa II. Just a more solid feeling camera, a lot smaller too.

I feel the opposite. I have owned both and sold my ZI folder. I kept the Bessa II. The only niggle I have with it is the film advance key is fiddly to get back into the case. To be honest the build quality of both was quite similar in my opinion but the unit focus of the Bessa is a tad more accurate.

However, it should be stressed that condition is certainly more important with these old folders than the original build quality. Find a good example of either and I doubt you will be disappointed.

A general word of warning ... Most of the Tessar type lenses on these older folders will have stunning qualities when shot on a view camera with ground glass focusing and a decent roll film back, but on the folders they seem to be limited by the rather modest mechanical qualities of these cameras. So it is very important to make sure that the copy you get is mechanically absolutely sound, to get as much out of the lens as you can.

I don't have experience with the Zeiss-Ikon, but I owned a Bessa II with a Heliar lens for some time. If technical picture quality is your main concern, I would rather tend to recommend an Agfa Record III with Solinar lens, best bang for the buck, IMO, for pure sharpness and resolution at infinity (the Solinar has jaw-dropping qualities at infinity, but it is cell focusing and the image quality will deteriorate at closer range).
The Bessas look sturdy and robust, but the folding mechanism is mishandled easily and therefore prone to bending and becoming loose, so make sure you inspect your copy carefully, a test film would be highly recommended.
While the finish of the Voigtländers of that area is of high quality and very beautiful, the mechanical qualities and assembly quality are rather debatable. My Bessa II had to have the lens adjusted (collimated) correctly, as infinity was way off, and from my Bessa I (like new in original box, "quality check" paper slip, receipt and all the other bells and whistles) I couldn't get a decent sharp picture even after collimation, because the film flatness was just so bad.
The Heliar is a lens that will draw beautifully, especially in the close to medium range, but it doesn't have the sheer resolution of the the Tessar type lenses at infinity. I don't have experience with the Color-Skopar (the Voigtländer Tessar clone), my Bessa I had one, but for me it was unusable due to the film flatness problems. Maybe for the people at the time it didn't matter so much, because they were used by amateurs and pictures were usually contact printed to tiny 6x9 cm sheets. But nowadays, we want to print much bigger and in this case the weaknesses will become obvious.

No experience with the Bessa, but I have a Perkeo II produced by Voigtländer in the same era. The film flatness issue is real, but it can also be addressed effectively. The key I found was ensuring that the spring steel parts that hold the feed spool (in the Perkeo these are two pieces that press outward and upward on the spool ends and one larger one that pushes inward against the center of the paper/film) keep it firmly in place. Obviously a 6x9 has a longer stretch to cover, but maintaining even tension on the film is key.

Another potential problem is the shutter/lens unit not being held firmly. Again, it can be dealt with by carefully tweaking the sheet metal tabs that locate the assembly against the door and struts. This needs to be done while checking collimation through a ground glass. Usually this can be identified relatively easily by analyzing how the mechanism works and figuring out where the wear points are likely to be.

The Color Skopar is indeed very capable once the potential problem areas are addressed.

I have used both perkeo and Bessa cameras, and many other folders, and I never have an issue with film flatness, the answer is in the film loading, make sure when you load the film that you wind it to the start line with tension on the full roll, and you get sharpness as good as anything else from the period, but remember that these cameras are 50+ years old and you cannot expect 2014 sharpness from lenses that were designed, in many cases, 70 years or more ago, but personally I prefer what I get from these older lenses, they have a character and charm that has been lost in todays lenses, and they do a very good job indeed, as far as the Color Skoper lens is concened, I have 4 voightlander's with that lens and I think they out perform a tesser any day of the week.

R.Gould said:

I have used both perkeo and Bessa cameras, and many other folders, and I never have an issue with film flatness, the answer is in the film loading, make sure when you load the film that you wind it to the start line with tension on the full roll, and you get sharpness as good as anything else from the period, but remember that these cameras are 50+ years old and you cannot expect 2014 sharpness from lenses that were designed, in many cases, 70 years or more ago, but personally I prefer what I get from these older lenses, they have a character and charm that has been lost in todays lenses, and they do a very good job indeed, as far as the Color Skoper lens is concened, I have 4 voightlander's with that lens and I think they out perform a tesser any day of the week.

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Loading the film is a factor, but that tension will not be maintained if the feed spool is not held firmly (as I detailed above) or if the winder's one-way mechanism is allowing rebound.

With old folders, it is better to wind on the film after opening the camera - the opening action sucks the film forward and compromises flatness. If you open the bellows and then wind on, flatness is restored.

Peltigera said:

With old folders, it is better to wind on the film after opening the camera - the opening action sucks the film forward and compromises flatness. If you open the bellows and then wind on, flatness is restored.

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An old trick with folders is if you are storing the camera wind the film untill just before the frame number appears then close the camera, when you open the camera wind the film that bit more to the frame number, this takes any suction out of the film, I personally, in many years of using folders a lot for both 35mm and 120 is no problem as long as the camera is loaded properly and winding is as outlined above, and that includes using an Ensign with the spring broken in the full film chamber

Peltigera said:

With old folders, it is better to wind on the film after opening the camera - the opening action sucks the film forward and compromises flatness. If you open the bellows and then wind on, flatness is restored.

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Really? I would not think that the it is sealed enough to cause this to happen. Plus, the film is already under tension so it would have to be really strong. Not saying your wrong, just surprised that someone would have this problem.

This is a informative thread for me as I just purchased a Besse I, have used four rolls so far and developed two of them which under a lope look sharp and fine. The second two rolls were taken hand held an hoping for good results also. It has a metric scale on the Skoper lens which is a challenge with no rangefinder but fun to use.
After making enlargements I will see how good I'm at in estimation of distance in the metric world.
Mike

fotch said:

Really? I would not think that the it is sealed enough to cause this to happen. Plus, the film is already under tension so it would have to be really strong. Not saying your wrong, just surprised that someone would have this problem.

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The tip was given to me from a old time photographer who grew up in the era of folders, I personally have never had any problems with folders, and I would say that 90% of my MF photography is taken on folders from a Baby bessa from 1936 to various cameras from the late 40's to the 50's and I do not take any special precautions, and I always wind on after each exposure, but I have also found the same suggestion as to winding on in an old book from the 50's that if closing the camera then wind on to just before the number of the next exposure, then close the camera, then when opening the camera finish the wind on to avoid the suction of the bellows opening causing the film to bow inwards, I guess there could be something in it but I never have an unfinished film in the camera to test it

fotch said:

Really? I would not think that the it is sealed enough to cause this to happen. Plus, the film is already under tension so it would have to be really strong. Not saying your wrong, just surprised that someone would have this problem.

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Up-market Zeiss Ikon folders have vents in the frame (I cannot for the life of me think of the technical term for this part) that the film sits against. Cheaper folders (such as Nettars) don't. The film does not need to move far - more a case of bowing a bit in the centre - to wreck the focus.

mike c said:

This is a informative thread for me as I just purchased a Besse I, have used four rolls so far and developed two of them which under a lope look sharp and fine. The second two rolls were taken hand held an hoping for good results also. It has a metric scale on the Skoper lens which is a challenge with no rangefinder but fun to use.
After making enlargements I will see how good I'm at in estimation of distance in the metric world.
Mike

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3 meters = 10 feet (or close enough)

Have fun!

Peltigera said:

Up-market Zeiss Ikon folders have vents in the frame (I cannot for the life of me think of the technical term for this part) that the film sits against. Cheaper folders (such as Nettars) don't. The film does not need to move far - more a case of bowing a bit in the centre - to wreck the focus.

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I think this is what you mean:

Top camera is a Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta C (the first version from the erly 1930s).
Bottom camera is a Kodak Nagel Vollenda 620.



I can see how the diagonal ridges of the film rails would allow the air pressure in the camera to equalize as the bellows are extended. Instead of pulling the film toward the lens, it would draw air from the edges of the film without pulling the center of the film. Hopefully.

Neither my early '50s Super Ikonta A, nor my late '40s Ikonta A have those ridges. Perhaps they were only needed with the larger negative.

MattKing said:

3 meters = 10 feet (or close enough)

Have fun!

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Ya, got that figured out, put a meter to foot scale on the back of the camera tell I get use to the meter's written on the distance scale of the lens.

Mike

elekm said:

I think this is what you mean:

Top camera is a Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta C (the first version from the erly 1930s).
Bottom camera is a Kodak Nagel Vollenda 620.

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That is exactly what I mean.