Voigtlander Avus (edit: actually Baby Bergheil) 4.5x6cm: film holder?

[stamasd]

I purchased recently a Voigtlander Avus in the 4.5x6cm format. The camera appears to be fully functional despite its age (according to the serial number it was made in 1926).
But I have a problem. It didn't cone with any film holders. I see a few on ebay but not in the correct size - all the ones I see for sale are either 6x9 or 9x12 (and some 10x17cm also).
Does anyone know of a source for those? Or have an idea of the size and construction thereof? Modern reproductions? Or maybe even better 3d print models (I have a 3d printer)?

 

[loccdor]

Are you sure it's an Avus? I can't find anything about that ever coming in a 4.5x6 size. Can we see pictures?

 

[stamasd]

Hmmm. It might be a Bergheil. Very similar device.
I'm trying to attach a picture but it won't let me. It says file is too big even though the jpg is 450kB, and I see the file limit is 2MB.

 

[stamasd]

Let's try this:

https://i.postimg.cc/Gmw1ZRt9/IMG-20250224-162712.jpg

It's not a good picture, the camera is terrible on the phone I took it with.

 

[loccdor]

Looks like it might be a Baby Bergheil.

This video has some information. If you skip to 7:15, the issue about the film holders not being available is addressed.

 

[stamasd]

Thank you for the link. Yes, that is exactly my camera.
Unfortunately I don't know a master in Tianjin to make a custom back for the camera. In fact, all I have is only a standard plate holder - not even the glass focusing back.
What I want to do with the camera is to adapt it for taking daguerrotypes. And maybe later on for custom made silver halide gelatin plates. That's why I was looking for film holders.

 

[loccdor]

Well, at least we've identified it. I shoot with roll film and 35mm, hopefully one of the more old-school people here can help. Looks like a beautiful camera. Martin Henson has a video using one and taking great pictures, but his is the 6.5x9. He uses the Rada rollfilm back with it.

 

[stamasd]

This is the back I have on the camera. A cassette that slides up, and also opens upwards on a hinge to place the plate inside.

https://i.postimg.cc/9Fzn1nB0/IMG-20250224-210724.jpg

I plan on making custom daguerrotype plates to place in that cassette. But if I had film holders it would be easier to change them from one picture to the next outside of a darkroom.
Hmm. I may need to get into sheet metal fabrication.

 

[loccdor]

Here is something that says it's 4.5x6cm. I have no idea if it actually fits the camera.

Universal Vintage 4.5x6cm Sheet Film Holders x12 in Leather Pouch | eBay

Dust inside lenses, even new ones, won't affect images. If you plan to use them professionally, service or cleaning is advised. Expect reasonable functionality and optics without noticeable issues, unless specified.

www.ebay.com

 

[stamasd]

From the shape of the holders, I'm pretty sure they won't.

 

[loccdor]

It does appear that you may need to make your own. If it helps, this is what they look like:

This thread has some information.

https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/433355-voigtlander-bergheil-a-small-one/

 

[stamasd]

Yeah. I have a pretty good idea of what I need to make. There's a 1mm groove in which the various backs fit, and I can measure that precisely. I can cut and bend 1mm aluminum without much difficulty. Putting the parts together though is going to be a little difficult, because 1mm is a little too thin to weld (which I can't do anyway) or even braze, and soldering aluminum is particularly difficult. Maybe epoxy, hmmm.

I need to make at least a custom ground glass back for focusing, and a number of plate/film holders with movable covers. Which should match the focal plane of the custom ground glass exactly.

 

[stamasd]

Okay I measured the dimensions of the backplate and of the opening therein.
Posting this here, maybe it will help someone else in the future.

https://i.postimg.cc/qMfLJrqn/back-annotated.jpg

Basically, the part that slides in the camera is 1-1.2mm thick (thickness is not uniform, varies with where I measure it)
Outside dimensions: 56mm wide, 88mm tall
Opening: 43mm by 59mm, located 13.5mm above the lower edge and 6.5mm from the lateral edges.

 

[stamasd]

And an incredibly simplistic 3D model I made based on the above, in zipped .stl format

 

[stamasd]

And another 3D model for a mode complete backplate including slit for a custom metal slider and holder for cut film or plates of 4.5x6cm, up to 1mm thickness; as well as a separate back cover. It may contain errors although I don't think so. I can only 3D print fused-filament not resin and this model is not appropriate for that, so I ordered a few copies of each resin-printed online. I should have them in the next 1-2 weeks for testing.

 

[lobitar]

Not to be nitpicking, but I think most sellers don't know the difference betw. a PLATE-holder and a FILM-holder. So be careful. Plate-holders including film-inserts will probably be hard to find.

 

[stamasd]

I agree that most sellers don't know the difference between a camera and a bulldozer. But as you may have noticed, I'm making my own now.
The one I've designed (and hopefully will come out right) is designed for versatility: holding a piece of ground glass for focusing, a plate, or cut film with a little extra accessory.

 

[Romanko]

The holder that you have appears to be for a film pack. You can adapt it to hold a glass plate or a focusing screen.

The original plate holders are not that hard to find, they do appear on online auctions from time to time. There were no dedicated sheet-film holders, a glass plate holder with a film insert was used. The roll-film back is the most practical way of using a 4.5x6 cm plate camera, unless of course if you want to shoot glass plates.

Be warned that glass plate holders from different manufacturers are not interchangeable due to differences in the flange and length. Despite the name "Normalfaltz" there is no such thing as a standard holder.

There is a related thread on this forum on 9x12 holders:

9x12 Plate holders 1

Because there are so many variations of the holders I've measured & photographed what I currently own. It would be useful if anyone can add further variations and also the cameras they fit. These two fit a Rodenstock 9x12 and an Orion Werks 9x12 details Width 100mm, length 139mm note the...

www.photrio.com

 

[stamasd]

Thank you for the information. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I will be using it primarily for daguerrotypes, with my own custom made silver-plated copper plates. And later on I will be trying to make my own gelatin glass plates, again all custom. In a way, I'll be making my own standard.

 

[Romanko]

I had a similar problem of finding a holder to fit my Icarette:

Plate holders for Icarette 500/2 and 551/2

I am trying to find 6.5 x 9 cm plate holders for my Zeiss Ikon Icarette 500/2 and 551/2. Does anyone know if Voigtländer Avus holders fit my cameras? I have several 9x12 cm folding cameras and know that holders from different manufacturers are not always interchangeable despite all being...

www.photrio.com

Voigtländer and Zeiss holders did fit my Ica so with some luck you might be able to use Zeiss Ikon type 665/3 holders on your camera:

For Sale - FS: Zeiss Ikon 665/3 Plate Holder w/Kodak Film Sheath

FS: A nice, used Zeiss Ikon 665/3 Plate Holder with a removable Kodak Film Sheath. For 6.5cm x 9cm plates, or 2 1/2" x 3 1/2" film. See Photos. I would characterize this as 'good user' condition, easily restored. Exterior cosmetics have wear, interior is quite clean. Dark slide has some finish...

www.photrio.com

 

[stamasd]

Unfortunately that's the wrong size. 6.5x9cm, whereas my camera takes 4.5x6cm.
I have seen Voigtlander holders for sale in the 6x9cm and the 9x12cm, but the 4.5x6 is uncommon and not available anywhere I've looked

 

[Romanko]

Unfortunately that's the wrong size. 6.5x9cm, whereas my camera takes 4.5x6cm.

Sorry, I overlooked the size. It is very uncommon (and tiny). There is always an option of 3D printing an adapter back for your camera as many people did for using 4x5 inch holders with their 9x12 cm cameras. There are several such projects on Thingiverse.

 

[stamasd]

Sorry, I overlooked the size. It is very uncommon (and tiny). There is always an option of 3D printing an adapter back for your camera as many people did for using 4x5 inch holders with their 9x12 cm cameras. There are several such projects on Thingiverse.

If you look above, I've made my own 3D version and attached the .stl files to this thread.

 

[Romanko]

In English catalogues the model is called the "Tourist" Vest Pocket Camera:

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00476/00476.pdf

The dial-set shutter hints that this is an early model. You can approximately date it using the shutter serial number:

Compur serial numbers - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

Does it have interchangeable lenses? What is the lens on this camera?
I can't wait to see photos taken with this little beauty.

 

[Jonathan-sv]

I have a Goerrz Tenax that takes 4.5 x 6 cm glass plates. Have some plate holders and can send you a picture. They look like stainless steel and each one takes two plates, that must be rather thin. I don't think they were ever used. It was used mostly with film from a film pack holder, which I also have (along with a lot of the negatives).