Vivian Maier, BBC Imagine documentary

Noble · Jun 28, 2013

Ken Nadvornick said:
Why has this poor woman suddenly now become mentally ill?

Ken

What was sudden about it? It theoretically went on for decades.

Bob Carnie said:
Noble

I have to ask you this.. have you ever considered the commitment needed to take 10,000 rolls of 120 film, and expose them all??
I think you are missing a very simple logistical , financial and physical action that this woman took.

Actually I am not. Why do you think I floated the theory about mental illness?

Bob Carnie said:
I would really like a measured response about how you would go about this simple task?

I wouldn't. I am not mentally ill and I have a day job.

Bob Carnie said:
I have made over 100,000 thousand prints, it took me my career.

Doing it as a career for money is reasonable.

I like some of Maier's pictures. But that doesn't change the facts around their creation.

Alan Klein · Jun 28, 2013

I don't think we should accuse her of mental problems because of the quantity of pictures. By that standard, half the people who have high post counts here might be nuts too!

Lionel1972 · Jun 28, 2013

Mozart must have suffered some kind of mental illness, why would a normal person spend most of his life writing down so such music in so little time? Complete passionate dedication isn't it what differentiates a true artist from a lucky amateur or a reasonable pro?

lxdude · Jun 28, 2013

Noble said:
I like some of Maier's pictures. But that doesn't change the facts around their creation.

And what are those "facts"?

lxdude · Jun 28, 2013

Alan Klein said:
I don't think we should accuse her of mental problems because of the quantity of pictures. By that standard, half the people who have high post counts here might be nuts too!

Not to mention digi-snappers.

Hmmm. Ya know....

Ken Nadvornick · Jun 28, 2013

Noble said:
What was sudden about it? It theoretically went on for decades.

OK, I'll play along...

Circular reasoning only proves that the question asked has gone unanswered... claims of fait accompli notwithstanding. And the suddenness appears to be your creation alone, as I can find no other online reference to mental illness or insanity attributable to Ms. Maire. And certainly none related to the quantity of photographs she made. Or never got around to developing.

Do you have privileged access to medical data of which everyone else is unaware? Or are not privileged to disclose publicly? Otherwise, just exactly how did you come to your determination, given that the poor woman has been dead now for four-plus years? Perhaps you knew her?

Ken

N.B. At best what you are proposing would seem to be a raw hypothesis, not a theory. In general scientific usage, a theory would be "a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science."* Based on what you have related here thus far, I don't believe you're quite there yet. Especially with that pesky "well-confirmed" part...

* Theory

lxdude · Jun 28, 2013

Noble said:
Brute force papers over all kinds mediocrity. I've stated this before in this thread. Way before Maier was an internet sensation and lay people marveled at my portfolio I would tell them if you are semi competent, take enough pictures, and edit carefully you will have a decent portfolio. I never imagined someone putting that philosphy on steriods and cranking out 100,000 negatives.

So are you calling her "semi competent"? A portfolio of the best of mediocre images will still be a mediocre portfolio.

As for your attempt at amateur psychoanalysis:

She made photographs for how long- 50 years? That averages out to 2000 a year. Less than 170 a month, less than 40 a week, less than 6 a day. What's extraordinary about that? Adams made over 40,000 negatives in his lifetime, the majority with a view camera. Nobody speculates about his soundness of mind for taking so many.

I've sometimes exceeded her average monthly output in a day, when the subjects warranted it. Even more often over a weekend. That's five 36 exposure rolls of 35mm film. And that's with very little bracketing. Many here have done the same. Is it so hard to conceive that she shot 17 rolls of 120 in a month? 40 pictures a week? How many of us have regularly gone out with our 35mm cameras to take pictures for several hours and did not have at least one extra 36 exposure roll?

She had a passion for photographing. That doesn't make it a mental disorder.
She chose to photograph with her spare time. Some people spend hours gardening. Some do woodworking. Some have model railroads, or make toothpick models of the Eiffel Tower. Some restore or customize cars. Some listen for hours to their high-end sound systems.
Some just sit on their asses in front of the TV. Or the computer.

Noble · Jun 28, 2013

Alan Klein said:
I don't think we should accuse her of mental problems because of the quantity of pictures. By that standard, half the people who have high post counts here might be nuts too!

You don't accuse anyone of having mental illness anymore than you accuse someone of having the common cold.

nimh.nih.gov said:
An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publ...count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml

Mental disorders are severly under diagnosed and even more seriously under treated. But they are over stigmatized. I don't have the time to address the various falsehoods in this thread but I did read them. I only wanted to call out the most egregious. I see this was the totally wrong place to discuss this serious issue. Guys next time you see a news story about someone who "had it all" and committed suicide and everyone is "shocked! SHOCKED!" that it happened remember this thread. You guys might be great at taking, printing, and critiquing photographs but you are terrible at mental health awareness.

Toffle · Jun 28, 2013

Lionel1972 said:
Mozart must have suffered some kind of mental illness, why would a normal person spend most of his life writing down so such music in so little time? Complete passionate dedication isn't it what differentiates a true artist from a lucky amateur or a reasonable pro?

Too many notes.

Clearly insane.

Ken Nadvornick · Jun 28, 2013

Noble said:
An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older—about one in four adults—suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.

And your reasoning behind the assertion that Ms. Maire was NOT a member of the other 73.8% is...

(Remember now, you were the one who said "Usually the simplest explanation is the correct one.")

Ken

lxdude · Jun 28, 2013

Noble said:
You guys might be great at taking, printing, and critiquing photographs but you are terrible at mental health awareness.

No, it's that your remark was pure speculation, based on her not-really-excessive output for a person dedicated to her avocation/art.

Noble · Jun 28, 2013

Toffle said:
Lionel1972 said:

Mozart must have suffered some kind of mental illness, why would a normal person spend most of his life writing down so such music in so little time? Complete passionate dedication isn't it what differentiates a true artist from a lucky amateur or a reasonable pro?

Click to expand...

Too many notes.

Clearly insane.

Keep making jokes guys. It is a hilarious topic.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov said:
The study of Mozart's letters and biography leads us to reconsider the psychiatric disorders from which he suffered. Indeed, it seems that Mozart demonstrated depressive episodes, some of which were severe and corresponded to the criteria of the DSM-IV classification. However, the arguments put forward by other authors supporting the occurrence of manic or hypomanic episodes (thus constituting a bipolar disorder diagnosis) are not supported by sufficient historic proof. Indeed, the length of time that the behaviors suggesting manic symptoms lasted is not compatible with such a diagnosis. Rather, Mozart's mood swings and impulsive behavior correspond to some traits of a personality disorder, that is, for the most part, symptoms of the dependent personality disorder. Evidence for this diagnosis appears most notably in Mozart's reactions to his wife's absences, but also in occasional behaviors as well as mood lability. The divergences in the classification of Mozart's symptoms, either into the field of bipolar disorders or into that of personality disorders, are closely linked to the nosological uncertainties that are still a source of debate in today's psychiatric research. We discuss a means of overcoming this limitation by considering the concept of "soft bipolar spectrum," a conceptualization that corresponds to Mozart's psychiatric history.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16247856

Ken Nadvornick · Jun 28, 2013

And the reasoning behind your medical assertion regarding Ms. Maire is...

(THX*)

Ken

* The audience is listening...

mesantacruz · Jun 28, 2013

WELL this is worrying me... can someone point to a number of frames i can take - both 120mm and 35mm/per week - so as not to bring any attention to my 'possible' mental state.

sometimes i shoot both during the same week, so if you can give me a way to compensate for both, i would be eternally grateful, not to mention relieved.

Noble · Jun 28, 2013

Ken Nadvornick said:
And the reasoning behind your medical assertion regarding Ms. Maire is...

(THX*)

Ken

* The audience is listening...

Obviously not. I have typed enough in this thread on that topic that if you want to know the answer you can just read my posts. If that is not enough then you can ask me a specific question. Many of the responses to my posts on the topic of mental illness were false as I demonstrated with my last post.

At this point this is like one of my encounters with hardcore DSLR users in public. They ask me about my camera and when I tell them it is a film camera they start going on and on about how digital is better. Thankfully this has only happened a couple of times but I don't waste my time explaining to them why I shoot film. Don't get me wrong I have turned a few people on to film but they were people that were receptive. I know people have zingers that they like to use on digital people but I don't. Why bother? It's not like you are going to convince them. I'm just polite and end the conversation as soon as possible and get back to shooting before I lose my light. So I have to end this conversation. I will not be returning to this thread. I do this as much for everyone else as I do it for myself. Thank you and good bye.

Pioneer · Jun 28, 2013

mesantacruz said:
WELL this is worrying me... can someone point to a number of frames i can take - both 120mm and 35mm/per week - so as not to bring any attention to my 'possible' mental state.

sometimes i shoot both during the same week, so if you can give me a way to compensate for both, i would be eternally grateful, not to mention relieved.

Yeahh, I've been thinking that I might need some help in this area as well. Of course, after several thousand frames of my own, I have not noticed any tendency toward eye-catching, creative, photos. Since I doubt that anyone would be tempted to purchase my negatives, and then sell them on e-bay posthumously, I may still be safe.

And in case someone makes the mistake of believing that I am poking fun at mental health, I am most definitely not. As Noble says, it is a serious issue that is often, tragically, ignored. However I have a sneaking suspicion that speculating on apug that someone may have had mental health problems based on their occupation coupled with the tendency to take, but not develop, a lot of pretty good pictures, is not going to change that.

Ken Nadvornick · Jun 28, 2013

Noble said:
If that is not enough then you can ask me a specific question.

Fair enough.

I just reread all of your posts into this thread. Here's my specific question that has thus far not been answered by you.* It's not designed to be a trap. It's not intended to obfuscate. I've worded it as straightforward as I possibly can, in as neutral a tone as possible. I'm fully prepared to hear an answer that I might not expect or agree with. And I am willingly subordinating myself to your level of expertise in these matters...

Exactly how did you come to your determination that Ms. Maire, during the long period in which she was photographically active, was afflicted by mental illness? And can you tell me what form that mental illness took and how it affected her?

I look forward to your answer...

Ken

* With the questionable exception of implying that since 1-in-4 people are subject to mental illness at some point in a given year, Ms. Maire must have therefore been one of those afflicted.

lxdude · Jun 28, 2013

So let me get this straight. The guy comes on here, speculates about Maier's mental health based on the number of pictures she took, gets disagreed with, and decides that we just don't get it, man. So he decides he won't discuss it with us poor benighted souls any further. But not before posting as some kind of proof of his assertion an article from nih.gov, which article is in itself a series of speculations and disagreements with prior speculations on Mozart's mental state, based only on his biography and letters. Mozart died 65 years before Freud was even born, and a bunch of gummint eggheads think they're so smart they can reach conclusions on the man's mental health. Psychoanalysis is as fraught with fads, disagreement and intellectual arrogance as any other soft science, i.e., those which do not have to submit to strict scientific method.
I have learned through the years to be suspicious of anyone who thinks they can psychoanalyze another person by long-distance, especially when they have no training in it. Every one I have known had some issues of their own. Not sayin' that's the case here, just sayin'.

Wayne · Jun 28, 2013

Please don't feed the necropsychiatrist.

lxdude · Jun 28, 2013

Noble said:
Mental disorders are severly under diagnosed and even more seriously under treated.

Which proves nothing about Maier.

You guys might be great at taking, printing, and critiquing photographs but you are terrible at mental health awareness.

Quite a claim. Looks like your mind's made up, and no amount of rational discourse will sway you. You are going to inform us of our failing to grasp and agree with your superior awareness, and that's that.
What's the point of discussing Maier's mental state, anyway? You steered the conversation in that direction, so it's obviously your interest, but it's not relevant for most of us anyway. Maier's dead, and can't be helped if she did have a mental health issue. Speculating about her mental health served what purpose? She was functional, had a job, and pursued a passion for photography. There is no appearance that any issues she might have had kept her from being satisfied with her life. I and others pointed out that what she did was not highly unusual for a dedicated photographer, therefore it was not really abnormal.
Maier was an unusual person, one who did what she wanted with her life, instead of conforming to the mold most others fit into. She was a prolific artist. For that she is adjudged to have mental issues? I'd rather be nutty like her than normal like the drones who go through their dull ordinary conformist lives.

Ya know what else? It's not really "normal" to go around speculating on the mental state of other people you never even met.

lxdude · Jun 28, 2013

Wayne said:
Please don't feed the necropsychiatrist.

Yeah, you're right. Great word! I wish I'd thought of it.

Patrick Robert James · Jun 29, 2013

I can't support a supposition that VM was mentally ill. The biggest factor to the contrary was she took care of children privately throughout her life. No parents would want a mentally ill person around their children. My impression of VM is that she was a mentally strong person due to her childhood. Quirky perhaps, intensely private, but she was dedicated, both to her employers and her photography. It seems apparent that she also had a strong will and a strong opinion. Calling her mentally ill seems odd to me, like a presupposition based on a personal experience. One thing about VM that I have noticed is that people tend to project themselves onto her. I see this time and time again. Maybe the answer Noble seeks lies in himself/herself. VM mentally ill? I just don't think there is any evidence.

lxdude · Jun 29, 2013

^^Well said! Excellent points.^^

Alan Klein · Jun 29, 2013

Film users must be mentally ill. Living in the past. Fear of the future. Tsk. Tsk. Shame!

TXFZ1 · Jun 29, 2013

I have always found Vivian Maier's story to be both beautiful and very sad. I think she did create photos just for herself. She was very talented and even her first work in France showed she had a keen eye. The Dali series is outrageous. Her self portraits are beautiful. I also wonder what she would think of the fame her work has now achieved today. I hope to one day see her prints but can only guess what/how she would have printed.

I am not defending Noble's stance but the movie theater manager first mentioned she seem very reclusive and may have had mental issues. He was certainly no expert but did have 13 yrs of interaction with her. I also believe the mother also had issues and was institutionalized (I need to watch the video again). Vivian certainly did not have a normal childhood. The photographing or recording of her paychecks and documents did seem odd. She was known to hoard old papers. To me, this just adds another layer to the sadness to what I think was her life. I hope I am wrong and she lived a happy life as she wanted.

David

Vivian Maier, BBC Imagine documentary

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