Visualisation After The Fact

Vaughn · Dec 4, 2023

xkaes said:
Some ALT processes may have certain "format" restrictions, but not the ones I've done, and as a long-time large format shooter, I use my negatives to the max. ... For me, that's where visualization really happens.

That is great -- whatever works best for you. If you wish to think negatively about how others work who just happen not to work like you do, that is your right. I am not impressed, though.

eli griggs · Dec 4, 2023

I once shot so much film, I learned to visualize the image at the moment the mirror or shutter was triggered.

While I do not shoot that level of film today, one habit I learned early on and still use, is to compose my image in camera and once I've done that, take a good step back and refocus again.

This top is, I think, something I learned when I first started photography, perhaps from a rangefinder article.

Otherwise, it might have been because SLR viewfinders did not allow the full display of the image, in camera.

From wherever, it does not matter, however, it will work, for me at least and you might try it out, especially with b&w films.

It's not 100% of images, called for but it does help.

SilverShutter · Dec 4, 2023

I think the feeling is common to a lot of photographers both film and digital including myself, but then again cropping is just another tool.
Fine if you don't want to crop, you may only take the images that you can perfectly compose at the spot, but I have more than once been caught out with the slightly wrong focal length, say a 45mm fixed lens rangefinder when I would love something like a 60-70mm: I will still take the shot, and let my negative carry me from there. And more often than not it works just as well. A lot of famous images are just crops of bigger negatives.

guangong · Dec 4, 2023

Cropping is analogous to a painter changing his mind and deliberately cutting a canvas down to improve result. Painters also often add canvas, an advantage denied to photographers.
The refusal to crop is a stubbornness I don't understand.

cliveh · Dec 4, 2023

Cropping! What's that?

warden · Dec 4, 2023

xkaes · Dec 4, 2023

SilverShutter said:
A lot of famous images are just crops of bigger negatives.

guangong said:
The refusal to crop is a stubbornness I don't understand.

Blasphemy!

xkaes · Dec 4, 2023

Vaughn said:
If you wish to think negatively about how others work who just happen not to work like you do, that is your right. I am not impressed, though.

No need to go overboard. I never said that anyone has to crop. I didn't even say that they ought to crop. I only pointed out that it is a useful tool for me -- and apparently many others.

Vaughn · Dec 4, 2023

xkaes said:
No need to go overboard. I never said that anyone has to crop. I didn't even say that they ought to crop. I only pointed out that it is a useful tool for me -- and apparently many others.

xkaes said: Sounds pretty restrictive to me, but I suppose some of us feel more comfortable in straight-jackets.

I do not burn and do not dodge either -- guess I must be ready for the looney-bin.

xkaes · Dec 4, 2023

Vaughn said:
I do not burn and do not dodge either -- guess I must be ready for the looney-bin.

You're a rare breed indeed. Even AA did a lot of it, and we wouldn't have Jerry Uelsmann without it.

Anyway, cropping -- which you admit to doing -- is really just a severe case of dodging.

Ian David · Dec 4, 2023

guangong said:
The refusal to crop is a stubbornness I don't understand.

You don't need to understand it. The personal cropping preferences of photographers really affect nobody else, so shouldn't matter much to anyone else. I personally crop quite often, and it doesn't trouble me. Seems to me the main practical problem faced by non-croppers is that they sometimes (unintentionally) don't get their horizons quite straight or their buildings quite vertical...

Anyway, I enjoyed your video Andrew, and your final cropped kallitype looks pretty good to me!

cliveh · Dec 4, 2023

Like Vaughn, I don't burn or dodge, but I also don't crop and 99% of my images are printed with zero contrast control. Oh and also I only like to use print exposures of even numbers and non of my pictures are arranged.

Vaughn · Dec 4, 2023

cliveh said:
Like Vaughn, I don't burn or dodge, but I also don't crop and 99% of my images are printed with zero contrast control. Oh and also I only like to use print exposures of even numbers and non of my pictures are arranged.

Excellent! I also try not to use contrast controls in my printing, and instead expose and develop negatives that will easily fit the native contrast of the printing material I make. Not always successful and there are some controls I can apply...but at the risk of changing other characteristics of the printing material (and thus the image) which I would like to maintain. However, using sheet film, I can not achieve printing only the even numbers. But whoa! I like arranging my photos on walls!

I can also (with Carbon Printing) have image-forming texture in Zone 0 of my prints in the form of raised relief.

MattKing · Dec 4, 2023

There is a fundamental difference between people electing to avoid cropping or refusing to crop their own work, and telling others that they are doing something wrong if those others elect to do that.

xkaes · Dec 4, 2023

There are no rights or wrongs -- but "croppers" have more flexibility -- see Vaughn's beautiful cropped panorama above.

Vaughn · Dec 4, 2023

Thank you. It was in my first one-person show almost 40 years ago when I was still silver gelatin printing. Lots of burning and a little bit of dodging back then, also...I would make the base exposure a little light, then carve out the rest of the image with my chisels of light (burning). Which is the way I visualized working with images in the darkroom at the time.

To do any burning/dodging now would require the use of masks. My normal exposure times to make carbon prints under my 750 watt merc vapor lamps (UV) can be from 30 minutes to two hours -- which makes normal burning impossible and a bit hazardous, although it might improve my tan. I have done some dodging on a couple images by using a Sharpie (black marking pen) on the glass of the contact printing frame.

4x10 carbon print
Death Valley

guangong · Dec 5, 2023

MattKing said:
There is a fundamental difference between people electing to avoid cropping or refusing to crop their own work, and telling others that they are doing something wrong if those others elect to do that.

Well put. The need to crop is lessened with well composed view camera produced negatives but is often necessary when shooting on the fly with 35mm. Really depends upon the circumstances. I often compose 66 or 35mm pre-visualizing later cropping.

xkaes · Dec 5, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
I give my senior photo students a project where they have to find 5 compositions within their negative (on the computer because we just don't have the budget for all that paper). I also do something similar with my 2D drawing students.

That's something we should all do -- and it's an advantage that larger formats have over smaller formats. With 4x5 negatives, I can crop pretty much unlimited.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 5, 2023

xkaes said:
That's something we should all do -- and it's an advantage that larger formats have over smaller formats. With 4x5 negatives, I can crop pretty much unlimited.

I agree, yes...As I stated earlier, it's easier if you are gel/silver printing via an enlarger, but not for carbon transfer and the other Alt. processes, unless you make a copy neg the old way, or digitally...or set up an enlarger that will accommodate 4x5/8x10 negs for UV printing.

Jim Jones · Dec 5, 2023

In large format, it's good to capture a potentially fine subject with an allowance for cropping differently at a later date. I've struggled with images captured decades ago that didn't fit today's requirements.

Visualisation After The Fact

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