Viradon. Fixing or not?

NB23 · May 8, 2020

I have RARELY seen something like this. There is just no information out there wether a print should be fixed after having been toned in Viradon.

Agfa’s pamphlet doesn’t say a thing about fixing.
My various google searches are not conclusive: a lot of blabla but not one single conclusion.

Quite frustrating.

So, to fix or not to fix, after having toned in Viradon?

i did not fix until now, but since I’m in a marathon of well over 2000 prints (yeah, printing all my best, ever), I want to make sure that my prints look as good as today when someone opens the huge boxes, in 100 years.

Here’s a print:

pentaxuser · May 8, 2020

Reading Tim Rudman's "The Master Photographer's Toning Book" it would appear that if Viradon or new Viradon is used as a direct toner without the indirect bleaching stage then no fixing is required.

pentaxuser

NB23 · May 9, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Reading Tim Rudman's "The Master Photographer's Toning Book" it would appear that if Viradon or new Viradon is used as a direct toner without the indirect bleaching stage then no fixing is required.

pentaxuser

Thank for answering!
Yes, everything points this way. Even agfa’s literature simply doesn’t mention fixing at all... but who knows. I prefered to ask.

koraks · May 9, 2020

Fixing after a sepia toner is not necessary.

Looking at the example print, it almost seems like you've got some serious staining of the whites going on, though. But it could be the lighting. In any case, sepia toning should not change the white border; if it does, it can point to insufficient fixing before toning or insufficient washing between fixing and toning.

NB23 · May 9, 2020

koraks said:
Fixing after a sepia toner is not necessary.

Looking at the example print, it almost seems like you've got some serious staining of the whites going on, though. But it could be the lighting. In any case, sepia toning should not change the white border; if it does, it can point to insufficient fixing before toning or insufficient washing between fixing and toning.

serious staining it is. I had this box of fogged papers which I saved with heavy use of Benzotriazole. But still, there were all kinds of weird things happening all along the 50 sheets. Each sheet was a different fight. I was happy to finish that box!

In this case it’s a mix of lighting and the fogged paper getting toned all over. I usially rip bad prints but this batch had this moody and quite unique look. Sometimes (well, always actually) I embrace the look over technical perfection. My fixing and washing are perfect, always! I’m well within archival standards.

miha · May 9, 2020

No fixing after Agfa Viradon (New = sans selenium) required. Best direct toner in my eyes, sadly gone. And far more archival than selenium alone, on par with gold.

NB23 · May 9, 2020

miha said:
No fixing after Agfa Viradon (New = sans selenium) required. Best direct toner in my eyes, sadly gone. And far more archival than selenium alone, on par with gold.

Yes, the best! I don’t even mind the atrocious smell.

2 weeks ago I found 10 bottles of Viradon burried between other chemicals. I knew that one day my obsessive compulsive hoarding disorder (strictly related to darkroom stuff, films, papers and cameras) would pay one day. And then Boom! Confimenent.

I keep on digging all kinds of stuff that I never knew I had. Exotic papers, a 16x20 print washer, Two 11x14 washers on top of the one I use regularly, potassium, benzo, bleaches, kodak sepia toners. I knew I wasn’t hoarding but simply preparing for the end of the world. Hahaha!

JPD · May 9, 2020

I have used Viradon. Normal development, stop, fix and rinse. Then toning in the Viradon solution, followed by a new rinse. Even if you have rinsed the prints well after toning, they may still smell a little even when dry.

It's very archival. Untreated photos may "yellow" due to sulphur compounds in the enviroment combining with the print silver. Sulpur toned prints already have, all the way!

Storing sulphur toned prints with untoned or selenium toned prints may not be a good idea.

NB23 · May 13, 2020

JPD said:
I have used Viradon. Normal development, stop, fix and rinse. Then toning in the Viradon solution, followed by a new rinse. Even if you have rinsed the prints well after toning, they may still smell a little even when dry.

It's very archival. Untreated photos may "yellow" due to sulphur compounds in the enviroment combining with the print silver. Sulpur toned prints already have, all the way!

Storing sulphur toned prints with untoned or selenium toned prints may not be a good idea.

Thanks!

NB23 · May 13, 2020

New, but related question:

1) when a print is Bleached, a subsequent fix is required. Common knowledge.

2) when a print is Bleached, and then toned in viradon, would a fix be required? Or does Viradon somehow fix the bleaching process? (I know it’s all in the silver halides getting converted back and forth to silver state...) but i’m looking for a definitive answer.

thanks

NB23 · May 13, 2020

miha said:
No fixing after Agfa Viradon (New = sans selenium) required. Best direct toner in my eyes, sadly gone. And far more archival than selenium alone, on par with gold.

This is very ambiguous and just what I was refering to, in my first post.

You seem to say that the “New” Viradon needs no fixing.

what about the “Original” vieadon? (Old)? Needs a Fix?

pentaxuser · May 13, 2020

NB23 said:
2) when a print is Bleached, and then toned in viradon, would a fix be required? Or does Viradon somehow fix the bleaching process? (I know it’s all in the silver halides getting converted back and forth to silver state...) but i’m looking for a definitive answer.

thanks

Again reading Tim Rudman's book in terms of a definitive answer it appears that if toning in Viradon subsequent to bleaching is not carried out to full redevelopment then the print should be fixed. He doesn't define full redevelopment. I'd assume that if you stop the toning at some point before full toning then fix becomes necessary.

I hope this helps

pentaxuser

cowanw · May 13, 2020

The question< I think, assumes that viradon does not redevelope the bleached silver. Else what would be the point over Viradon sans bleach.

miha · May 13, 2020

NB23 said:
This is very ambiguous and just what I was refering to, in my first post.

You seem to say that the “New” Viradon needs no fixing.

what about the “Original” vieadon? (Old)? Needs a Fix?

Sorry, Agfa Viradon is sodium polysulfide + selenium salts, Agfa Viradon New is sodium polysulfide alone. None needs a fix.

john_s · May 13, 2020

If I remember correctly, Agfa recommended in some circumstances a rinse in sodium sulphite after toning with Viradon (New).

I've just found my old Agfa pdf. This is a direct copy and paste:

Direct toning with VIRADON
AGFA VIRADON 1 + 24 1 – 10 min
(1 part VIRADON + 24 parts water) (depending on
intensity needed)
Stop bath (10% sodium sulphite solution) 1 min
(only necessary if after-toning in the wash
is to be prevented)
Final wash (as given for RC and fibre-base papers)

Indirect toning (with 44 BL bleach)
Bleaching: 44 BL bleach * (1 + 3) 2 – 5 min
(1 part 44 BL concentrate + 3 parts water)
* Process AP 44 (bleach for colour reversal film processing)
or Bleach (AGFA 501 formula) 5 min
500 ml 10% potassium ferricyanide solution
100 ml 10% potassium bromide solution
400 ml water
Wash (running) 5 min
AGFA VIRADON 1 + 24 3 min
(possibly stop bath as for direct toning)
Final wash (as given for RC and fibre-base papers)
Process temperature: 20 °C / 68 °F

If the aim is just to make prints stable for storage (image silver
stability), the direct toning method should be used, since it
changes the print tone very little. Indirect toning produces
much warmer print tones (yellow-red).
BROVIRA-SPEED 310 is less suitable for indirect toning, since
this method may result in a matter gloss in the dark to black
print areas than in the lighter areas.
NB To stop staining the prints must be placed individually in
the VIRADON solution and then well agitated. It is also
necessary for prints indended for toning to be treated with fixer
which is as fresh as possible and to have been thoroughly
washed. Thorough washing is also necessary after toning.
Yield
In one litre of ready solution 2 to 3 m² paper can be toned
(equivalent to approx. 45 to 70 sheets 17.8 × 24 cm).
Storage life
The concentrate will keep virtually indefinitely in closed bottles.
The solution should be used once and then discarded.

NB23 · May 13, 2020

Thanks, all.

BTW, direct viradon toning can give drastic results. It all depends on the paper. Some papers react quickly and deeply to it while others end up with a very mild but still interesting results (warm).

koraks · May 14, 2020

So am I correct in supposing that the old viradon (selenium + polysulfide) is quite similar to Moersch MT-2 'Carbon' toner? I imagine the ratios may be different and they may have different additional ingredients, but it seems that they are conceptually similar.

RalphLambrecht · May 14, 2020

NB23 said:
I have RARELY seen something like this. There is just no information out there wether a print should be fixed after having been toned in Viradon.

Agfa’s pamphlet doesn’t say a thing about fixing.
My various google searches are not conclusive: a lot of blabla but not one single conclusion.

Quite frustrating.

So, to fix or not to fix, after having toned in Viradon?

i did not fix until now, but since I’m in a marathon of well over 2000 prints (yeah, printing all my best, ever), I want to make sure that my prints look as good as today when someone opens the huge boxes, in 100 years.

Here’s a print:

View attachment 245723

Viradon is a direct toner(no bleaching)but I use it as the last step in print processing after fixing and washing but wash again after toning. but careful; there is aftertoning during the final wash, which needs to be considered.

miha · May 14, 2020

koraks said:
So am I correct in supposing that the old viradon (selenium + polysulfide) is quite similar to Moersch MT-2 'Carbon' toner? I imagine the ratios may be different and they may have different additional ingredients, but it seems that they are conceptually similar.

Yes, quite correct, Siena MT4 which I've used in the past also falls into this category.

Lachlan Young · May 14, 2020

koraks said:
So am I correct in supposing that the old viradon (selenium + polysulfide) is quite similar to Moersch MT-2 'Carbon' toner? I imagine the ratios may be different and they may have different additional ingredients, but it seems that they are conceptually similar.

According to the MSDS:

MT-2 is selenium and sulfide
MT-4 is selenium and polysulfide
MT-5 is mostly sulfide with some polysulfide

koraks · May 14, 2020

Ah thanks for clarifying this!
I receieved a bottle of mt2 that I'm planning to play with. I had preferred getting my hands on some sodium selenide and polysulfide, but not much luck yet. (Yes, I'm aware of the safety concerns/risks).

gorbas · May 14, 2020

Just yesterday I used Viradon New. It's incredible how little information about this product is given by Agfa? After reading ultra short instruction found in the box I also checked a few Agfa paper processing instruction PDFs and lack of full info is just incredibile?
So, for how long paper should be wash after fixer and before toning with Viradon? Not at all, 2min, 10min, 30min, full hour??

Lachlan Young · May 14, 2020

koraks said:
Ah thanks for clarifying this!
I receieved a bottle of mt2 that I'm planning to play with. I had preferred getting my hands on some sodium selenide and polysulfide, but not much luck yet. (Yes, I'm aware of the safety concerns/risks).

It's pretty amazing used directly on Fomatone & used as a light bleach/ redevelopment process on Multigrade Classic FB is great too.

RalphLambrecht · May 15, 2020

gorbas said:
Just yesterday I used Viradon New. It's incredible how little information about this product is given by Agfa? After reading ultra short instruction found in the box I also checked a few Agfa paper processing instruction PDFs and lack of full info is just incredibile?
So, for how long paper should be wash after fixer and before toning with Viradon? Not at all, 2min, 10min, 30min, full hour??

to avoid staining, the print should be fully washed after fixing and prior to toning.

gorbas · May 17, 2020

Thank you Ralph! Full washing was always recommended before indirect training (bleach+toning bath), but for direct toning with Viradon, lack of full info provided by Agfa is just amazing. They talk about using soda bath for faster washing (just like Kodak HCA) and avoiding prolonged washing times but little about other important aspects of using their toner.

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