Vinyl Records - Could it happen with film?

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Steve Smith

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For not being an "audiophile type," your all valve (tube) circuit pre-amplifier with balanced line microphone inputs. Featuring phantom power at 48 volts and phase reversal switches. Each section comprises of an ECC82/12AU7 dual triode valve which amplifies the microphone signal via an input transformer. certainly looks audiophile-ish.

I make a distinction between audiophile, which I take to mean very high end domestic hi-fi and professional audio which is generally recording equipment and sound reinforcement.

The circuit within the microphone pre-amplifier is not high tech. It is not much different from a circuit which could be found in the RCA designers manual from the 1940's/1950's. In fact, I doubt that you could simplify it any more than it is already.

Whilst I take some interest in modern recording techniques, it must be remembered that there are a great many classic recordings which were produced with very basic, run of the mill equipment without the aid of Pro Tools digital mastering and wallet busting oxygen free, dilithium coated, Kryptonite enhanced connectors.


Steve.
 

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In my time, we used phlogiston to remove oxygen, and today all of the Kryptonite has been bought up by Luthor industries! Thats the problem. No one uses phlogiston, and you just cannot buy Kryptonite on the open market.

PE
 

Steve Smith

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In my time, we used phlogiston to remove oxygen.

I didn't realise you were that old!

Tests have shown that dephlogisticated air is only 97% efficient at removing oxygen from copper compared to dilithium/kryptonite enhancing.

Once you have heard a system with dilithium/kryptonite enhanced interconnects, you will not be able to tolerate listening to anything else.

The point of one of my earlier posts and the slightly tongue in cheek comment above was that yes, you can spend a lot of money ensuring that your interconnects are the best they could possibly be together with every other component in your system (turntable, cartridge, pre-amp, amp, speakers) but most recordings have passed through op-amps in standard circuit boards soldered with tin/lead solder in equipment connected up with standard copper leads with nickel plated connectors.

To me it is a bit like expecting the world's best enlarger to improve the print from your Holga derived negative.



Steve.
 
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In summary:

When listening to music, there is a sound stage. All instruments / musicians interact in a stage of sounds. The space in which they appear in the sound stage can be more or less well defined. With my setup, with a good recording, be a CD, SACD, vinyl, DVD-Audio, even master tape (I've listened to them too, from Swedish label Opus 3), I get a very clear picture of how the sounds are placed. I hear singers breathing, sheet music turned, feet stomped on the floor, and sometimes conversations between musicians when they play, but most of all, I get a fabulous musical presentation that makes me appreciate the music. This is regardless of the medium listened to, but it requires a decent recording.
Now, a bad recording sounds bad no matter what medium, and a 16 bit redbook CD can sound awesome. A lot depends on the mastering. But, comparing 16 bit to SACD or vinyl is just not even in the same dimension when it comes to these spatial relationships in the music. Both of these mediums, if done well, will slaughter a normal CD, and especially when the music gets complex it becomes even more audible, where I can no longer hear the sound stage even remotely as well defined. Texture in the music, timbre, and tone become less well pronounced, and to me they are essential ingredients to the experience. The CD medium also adds components to the music that's not there in the master tape, in the form of white noise in the high frequencies that further extends the same problem. That's what listening fatigue comes from.

Don't get me started on MP3s... :D The funny thing is, I have heard systems costing well over $100k that does this poorly. I have heard $2k systems that do it brilliantly. It's about component matching, and can be compared to your favorite film/devloper combination. Some of them you find just work and 'sing' while others don't.

I thought I'd add that piece in an effort to explain where I came from before. I really didn't want to get into the discussion in the first place, but I felt it was important to explain why.

One thing is for sure. CDs today sound a lot better than they used to, and I certainly don't sit around thinking about how bad they sound. No I enjoy music in kinds of ways, and a CD is a valid medium as it can sound astonishingly well, and it's only when compared to higher resolution mediums that it falls short. SACDs and DVD-Audio discs are all nice, but I don't think there's a lot of mass appeal. I doubt they'll stick around for long. I hope I'm wrong. I think vinyl will stay around for a long time, because some people actually care about them, are passionate about them, and are willing to pay the price. I hope I'm right about that.

In the same breath I really hope film stays around for a long time. I am willing to pay a premium for film and paper. I'll just shoot less and print more selectively. There is one distinction that sets the audio market apart from film though. Second hand. Sure, you can buy cameras and lenses, but film and paper you use once. While an album will stay virtually the same for 50 years, (it's more archival than CDs), film has to be used when it's fresh for optimum results.

- Thomas
 

Iwagoshi

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I make a distinction between audiophile, which I take to mean very high end domestic hi-fi and professional audio which is generally recording equipment and sound reinforcement.

The circuit within the microphone pre-amplifier is not high tech. It is not much different from a circuit which could be found in the RCA designers manual from the 1940's/1950's. In fact, I doubt that you could simplify it any more than it is already.

Whilst I take some interest in modern recording techniques, it must be remembered that there are a great many classic recordings which were produced with very basic, run of the mill equipment without the aid of Pro Tools digital mastering and wallet busting oxygen free, dilithium coated, Kryptonite enhanced connectors.


Steve.

@Steve,
Audiophile(?): To me "balanced line...inputs" and "ECC82/12AU7" are hi-end buzz words, and besides the optimum amp is "straight wire with gain." So simplicity is a virtue.

I can't scoff at Krypto-connects when I have Cryo-monocrystal (I'm a sucker for snake-oil).


@Thomas,
Everything you've mentioned--CD-fatigue, soundstage, timbre--I totally agree with. Although I feel that soundstage, timbre, and ambiance (recording locale) are superior on vinyl.

Bad recordings: There is an inversely proportional relationship between recording audio quality and performance. The musical performances on audiophile-quality LPs are usually quite pedantic and sterile, while the best artistic performances usually come through on the average pressings.

With that said I will say that my CD collection surpasses that of LPs. I love music, old and new, jazz to classical to house, all genres sans Cowboy and Pop. The amount of new music on cd is unfathomable, the amount of new music on mp3s are ten-fold that and smeared all over world-wide-web. Without the digital medium I would have never heard Arvo Part (Finland), Tinawiren (Toureg), N'dour (Senegal), Hiromi (Japan), etc.

I have often wondered if I would be back doing film if it weren't for digital.

Back on-topic:
Vinyl LP is Back in mainstream rotation
Mainstream retailers now are getting into the act. Best Buy will test the waters.


Terry
 

Steve Smith

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@Steve,
Audiophile(?): To me "balanced line...inputs" and "ECC82/12AU7" are hi-end buzz words, and besides the optimum amp is "straight wire with gain." So simplicity is a virtue.

Possibly. It was only my interpretation of 'audiophile'

If I could be bothered to measure the specifications of my pre-amp I would be able to find production units which have better signal to noise ratio performance and better linearity but that was not the point of making it.

It's reason is purely to put a valve (tube) circuit in the path between the microphone and the digital recorder to 'warm up' the sound. It's a difference you can hear but is very difficult to describe in words.

The first two units were made for a friend who is a session percussionist. He takes them to all of his sessions and insists upon them being used. They have been used in sessions with Sting, The Lighthouse Family, Nigel Kennedy, etc.

I have mentioned it in other threads but I have also built for him, a nine channel, all valve mixing desk for final mix down. He used to use a Soundcraft desk but now uses mine exclusively. The valve desk also reduces the need for some outboard equipment. He finds that he does not need to compress things as much as before. Also, the desk has no EQ, at his request, and it is not generally needed. Again, it's a subjective thing which defies description in words but is obvious on hearing it.

As to the other points. Balnced line inputs are synonomous with high quality studio equipment but the reality in 95% of cases is that the first thing that happens to that balanced line input is that it is converted to unbalanced for processing then balanced again for output. Balanced line's major advantage is in its noise reduction qualities. The theory (and practice) is that any noise from an external source is picked up up equally on both lines but since one line is inverted and the other not inverted at the input stage, the noise is cancelled out. This is especially usefully for microphone cables where they can run for several hundred feet from the stage to the desk (in live applications). In my opinion, the use of balanced line to join up two pieces of equipment next to each other in a 19" rack is over-rated.

And the ECC82/12AU7 is a very standard, domestic device which was (and is) used in a variety of applications including guitar amplifiers which aren't hi-fi/audiophile at all.




Steve.
 
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srs5694

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In my time, we used phlogiston to remove oxygen, and today all of the Kryptonite has been bought up by Luthor industries! Thats the problem. No one uses phlogiston, and you just cannot buy Kryptonite on the open market.

Ooh... Maybe we should all be using phlogiston to prevent oxidation of our developers....

(Yes, I'm joking, too. If anybody doesn't get the joke, look up "phlogiston" on Wikipedia.)
 
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