Vinegar smelling film

Worker 11811 · Mar 11, 2013

Properly stored acetate-based film should last 50 to 100 years without turning to vinegar. It needs to be kept cool and dry. Not necessarily frozen but below room temperature, at least. If stored in proper conditions using vapor absorbing molecular sieves, acetate film should last 100 years or more. It's only when film is stored under bad conditions that it goes bad.

Polyester (PET) film stock doesn't have the vinegar problem but it's got its own set of issues.
It's thinner, which might throw off camera mechanisms that depend on thickness or diameter of a roll. It pipes light through the edges which might cause halation and flare. It's also very strong, virtually impossible to tear. If it gets jammed up in camera mechanisms or projectors, it can cause damage. The camera or projector sprockets won't tear through the sprocket holes like they will on acetate.

The benefit of poly film, for us at least, would probably be increased longevity. Assuming good storage conditions, it should last 100 to 150 years or more.

Archivally speaking, film, on its worst day, can last longer than a hard drive on its best day.

AgX · Mar 11, 2013

The thickness and the lightpiping are characteristics of materials now in use. These are well chosen by the industry with a certain application in mind.

It would be no technical problem to produce PET base with other characteristics if economical.
The longevity of PET base is considered much longer than those 150years. But I must admit that longevity studies are tricky.

How many projectors have you seen torn apart due to the use of PET-based film?

Photo Engineer · Mar 11, 2013

I have heard of cameras and coating machines damaged by PET films.

But, most importantly, once started this process keeps going. So, taking pictures and processing the film won't halt the degradation and thus you will eventually lose your pictures. I would not waste time on this one.

PE

Worker 11811 · Mar 11, 2013

AgX said:
How many projectors have you seen torn apart due to the use of PET-based film?

Oh, my God! I've got war stories!
Reader's Digest version: I, personally, have had to rebuild two projectors that were damaged when polyester film got jammed up in them. $2,000-$3,000 worth of repair, each. (Not including lost revenue due to down-time.) I have had to replace several sprockets, rollers or other small parts due to jam-ups. I was told about one of the first incidents of a jam-up with polyester film at my company where the platter system was pulled over on its side by the projector motor. Over 2 miles of film was dumped on the floor.

If you keep your projectors clean and working properly and, if you pay attention to your work, polyester film presents few problems. But, if you screw up, you can really have a mess on your hands.

A lot of the newer projectors that were produced had carbon fiber drive gears that were designed to strip out in case of a jam. Replacing the gears is less costly, compared to replacing the whole mechanism. Intermittents (AKA: Geneva movements) must be made of steel and, if you blow one of those up, you're S.O.L!

Photo Engineer said:
But, most importantly, once started this process keeps going. So, taking pictures and processing the film won't halt the degradation and thus you will eventually lose your pictures. I would not waste time on this one.

Good point!
I didn't really think of that.
No sense in using film that's already over the hill. It will only pick up speed.

georgegrosu · Mar 11, 2013

I have not met till now the decomposition of support of film in the undeveloped film.
Cases of vinegar syndrome for films I have met at the National Film Archive of Romania.
Decomposition worst case I've seen from support at some magnetic tapes of 35 mm.
Magnetic tapes were kept in plastic bags and then placed in metal box 300 m.
The smell of vinegar when they opened the dreaded plastic bags.
The vinegar syndrome, support of triacetate have various stages of decomposition, finally reaching the film can no longer be used.
In the case of films undeveloped affected by vinegar syndrome, I think the most important result is the development process.
Acetic acid formed upon decomposition support (more or less) is a weak acid, but surely will interact with the developer.
A wash, or better, a solution of sodium carbonate (3-5 g / l) could solve problems acetic acid formed.
After the solution of sodium carbonate, wash the film and then put it in developer.
The method of prevention of vinegar syndrome is aeration of film.
Roll of film (developed) unfolds periodically at low speed.
For undeveloped films I suggest you find a way to expose them to the air (in a darkroom) for a few minutes or more.
I do not know how advanced the decomposition of the triacetate (support) you are.
Acetate suport degradation is autocatalytic reaction.
Acetate suport degradation is infectious. Infected air from deposits of films may initiate or exacerbate degradation of films - vinegar syndrome.
Airtight films have a higher risk of accelerating the decomposition of suport of acetate.
Proposals to keep control vinegar syndrome:
Maintaining a proper environment leads to improved chemical stability. Low temperatures and dry air reduces the degradation rate.
Support infected acetate will degrade increasingly faster. Stabilization of degradation -vinegar syndrome - involves improving storage conditions.
Removal of acetic acid, a byproduct of degradation, decrease the degradation and limits and risk of infection.

George

Sal Santamaura · Mar 11, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
once started this process keeps going. So, taking pictures and processing the film won't halt the degradation and thus you will eventually lose your pictures. I would not waste time on this one

Worker 11811 said:
Good point!
I didn't really think of that.
No sense in using film that's already over the hill. It will only pick up speed.

Which is why I previously posted:

Sal Santamaura said:
To the tune of the William Tell Overture:

"To da dump, to da dump, to da dump, dump, dump..."

StoneNYC · Mar 11, 2013

Thanks guys! And yea, good point PE. Should I officially close the thread? Or leave it open for others in future reference?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

StoneNYC · Mar 12, 2013

Strange question. I often use milk to dissolve/nullify the effects like acidic things like battery acid that has collected on metal contacts etc.

If I were to soak the canister and tin in a milk bath, would that nullify any acid that may have collected on those items so that I could safely use them with other films?

I'm not that great at chemistry so maybe what I'm saying is really dumb?

For that matter, is there anything I could soak the film in that would halt the vinegar process? (That would still make it usable) or is that just crazy talk?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Paul Goutiere · Mar 12, 2013

Is it possible for nitrate based films to spontaneously combust? I have seen how fast this stuff can burn!

I think beyond the acid problem this is one thing I'd really be concerned about.

StoneNYC · Mar 12, 2013

Paul Goutiere said:
Is it possible for nitrate based films to spontaneously combust? I have seen how fast this stuff can burn!

I think beyond the acid problem this is one thing I'd really be concerned about.

If you have any yea, take a look at my gallery, probably on the most recent page, there are two images of how fast it burns

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Worker 11811 · Mar 12, 2013

StoneNYC said:
For that matter, is there anything I could soak the film in that would halt the vinegar process? (That would still make it usable) or is that just crazy talk?

If you could find such a substance and get it to market you could be a very rich man!

PhotoJim · Mar 12, 2013

Milk is somewhat acidic (it contains lactic acid) - my guess is that it might be the fat in milk that's helping more than the milk itself.

StoneNYC · Mar 12, 2013

PhotoJim said:
Milk is somewhat acidic (it contains lactic acid) - my guess is that it might be the fat in milk that's helping more than the milk itself.

Oh haha, hmmm well then, so what could I use if anything for the canister and the tin? Or is that a lost cause?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Photo Engineer · Mar 12, 2013

Milk curdles in acid due to a reaction with it. Even though it contains lactic acid it can react with acid and eat it up. However, nothing will stop the decomposition of the film once started. It goes and keeps going until it becomes entirely useless. The film you have Stone is bad. Face it and move on! Get rid of it.

If it was nitrate film, remember that this is akin to gun cotton and is actually nitro cellulose. Look up the properties on the internet. Not good stuff.

PE

StoneNYC · Mar 12, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
Milk curdles in acid due to a reaction with it. Even though it contains lactic acid it can react with acid and eat it up. However, nothing will stop the decomposition of the film once started. It goes and keeps going until it becomes entirely useless. The film you have Stone is bad. Face it and move on! Get rid of it.

If it was nitrate film, remember that this is akin to gun cotton and is actually nitro cellulose. Look up the properties on the internet. Not good stuff.

PE

I know the film is bad, I'm interested in salvaging the canister haha, I guess if there's no way to stop the process, even the residue on the canister is probably "dangerous" to other film then?

I've already burned the old Nitrate film, didn't you see my gallery where I took pictures of how it burns?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Worker 11811 · Mar 12, 2013

One of those metal, screw top canisters? Just wash it out well with soap and water. I use Dr. Bronner's Castile. (It has a pH of about 9.)
Rinse well and dry completely. Should be good to go.

I've got about a dozen of those metal containers. That's how I got the gunk out of them after they had been sitting in a closet for decades.

StoneNYC · Mar 12, 2013

Worker 11811 said:
One of those metal, screw top canisters? Just wash it out well with soap and water. I use Dr. Bronner's Castile. (It has a pH of about 9.)
Rinse well and dry completely. Should be good to go.

I've got about a dozen of those metal containers. That's how I got the gunk out of them after they had been sitting in a closet for decades.

Oh man dr bronners really does wash everything! Haha damn hippies! Haha, I've certainly got some ill give it a try, for the heck of it I might give it a try washing some of the film with it and see how that works, wouldn't that be a hoot if it worked! Haha

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Worker 11811 · Mar 12, 2013

Dr. Bronner's was made long before the hippies latched onto it. It was first marketed as a Kosher product.
I don't buy it because it's Kosher. I buy it because it's one of the few soaps that doesn't make my skin break out.
Secondarily, it's useful for all kinds of other stuff.

I wouldn't recommend it for washing film but, if you're up for some science experiments, what the hell?

mhofmeist · Mar 12, 2013

What about stored negatives?

This thread has made me a bit nervous.
I do not use very old film, but I have quite a number of negatives on Panatomic-X (and other b/w materials, all 35mm), exposed and developed during the late 70s, when I still went to school. Until now I always thought that I am safe from loosing them (in contrast to digital files) as long as I keep them dry and away from heat. Everywhere the long term stability of black and white film and its archival properties are praised.
Now I am unsure what to do. Is it just a very small risk, more or less theoretical? Many people have 50 years old negatives, and do not report any troubles with them decomposing. Or are they just lucky? Is it advisable to take measures? It is a chemical reaction, so will be slowed down in low temperatures. But I can not store my negatives in a fridge. And of course I do not know what sort of film base was used for each of the different films I used.
I would be very thankful for some advice that helps estimate the urgency/risk and reasonable precautions.
And a big thank you anyways to PE for sharing his knowledge so readily.

M. Hofmeister

StoneNYC · Mar 12, 2013

mhofmeist said:
This thread has made me a bit nervous.
I do not use very old film, but I have quite a number of negatives on Panatomic-X (and other b/w materials, all 35mm), exposed and developed during the late 70s, when I still went to school. Until now I always thought that I am safe from loosing them (in contrast to digital files) as long as I keep them dry and away from heat. Everywhere the long term stability of black and white film and its archival properties are praised.
Now I am unsure what to do. Is it just a very small risk, more or less theoretical? Many people have 50 years old negatives, and do not report any troubles with them decomposing. Or are they just lucky? Is it advisable to take measures? It is a chemical reaction, so will be slowed down in low temperatures. But I can not store my negatives in a fridge. And of course I do not know what sort of film base was used for each of the different films I used.
I would be very thankful for some advice that helps estimate the urgency/risk and reasonable precautions.
And a big thank you anyways to PE for sharing his knowledge so readily.

M. Hofmeister

I would not worry so much, as long as its stored in cool and dry places with steady temperatures, it's fine and will last longer than you.

This Panatomic-X was obviously stored in VERY POOR conditions, probably a hot humid garage or something like that.

Don't be nervous your stuff is fine.

On a side note, don't buy the Panatomic-X 70mm that's on eBay, since that's the stuff, he has a lot of it for something like $29.99+ shipping. I've emailed him about the issue but he hasn't responded nor pulled the posting :/ I feel bad for people who buy it.

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Worker 11811 · Mar 13, 2013

Paul Goutiere said:
Is it possible for nitrate based films to spontaneously combust? I have seen how fast this stuff can burn!

I think beyond the acid problem this is one thing I'd really be concerned about.

Nitrate film is a concern but it's not that dangerous if handled properly. The biggest problem comes from people who don't know what they are dealing with.

The decomposition of nitrate film is an exothermic reaction. It creates its own heat. When the heat builds up to a high enough level, that's when spontaneous combustion occurs. If you don't let the film get hot enough it won't ignite. The problems are twofold. The exact temperature at which nitrate film ignites isn't well understood. (Somewhere around the 100ºF mark.) Heat builds up slowly and film usually becomes "critical" when nobody is around to notice.

The film isn't going to just burst into flames. It goes through several stages of decomposition first. It only self-ignites in the later stages. It can decompose all the way through the final stage without igniting but, once it gets past the beginning stages, it will be too far gone to be useful. By that time, you should have been able to address the problem before it becomes more dangerous.

We're photographers and we're used to handling substances that are more toxic, flammable or dangerous than ordinary people so I have less worries about telling people here what I know about nitrate film. I have handled it but have never projected because it is illegal to project nitrate in a facility that is not specifically outfitted for the purpose. When I came across it, I set it aside and I took it out to the loading dock. Later, when nobody was around, I quietly took it away and got rid of it. Let's just say the film has been destroyed and leave it at that.
(It was only a small roll, about 6 inches in dia.)

If you come across nitrate film, segregate it and put it in a safe place where, if it catches fire, it won't do major damage. (Outside, away from buildings.) Then, at your first opportunity, have it destroyed. If the images are valuable, have it copied first.

If you want to know more about nitrate film, check the following links:
http://www.nationalmediamuseum.org.uk/~/media/Files/NMeM/PDF/Collections/Universal/NitrateFilm.ashx
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Storage/storage_nitrate.htm

railwayman3 · Mar 13, 2013

FWIW, I've a negs and slides from my Father and Grandfather, back to the 1940's. Apart from some fading on some early slides (which seems to be a known issue with some older brands of film, and could relate to less-than-optimal processing), they all seem fine. Storage has been in normal domestic conditions, no special archival precautions.

Vinegar smelling film

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