Very strange fine-lined, wavy, marks on film?

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What About Bob

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After shooting with the Ultrafine Xtreme line of films I began using my Ilford stock. I had bought six rolls of Pan F Plus and six rolls of FP4 Plus, both in the 120 format. I started with shooting two rolls of Pan F Plus, some days ago. I haven’t used the FP4 Plus yet. I used to shoot with Pan F 50 back in the early 90s in 35mm format and loved its tonal qualities and fineness/smoothness. I was so excited to try this film in 120 format.

After developing my rolls: On the Pan F Plus rolls I notice that they both have, what I would describe as, multiline, thin wavy lines going through the whole length of the film. They do resemble scratch marks that almost resemble what a sine wave would look like but a lot more shallower. I have worked with sound files for a long time and that caught my eye. These marks are visible at both viewing the negatives at an angle and looking dead-on at the negative up against a light source.

At first I thought that maybe it could have been a drying issue. I removed one of the negative strips from my sleeve and dampened a blank spot, between frames, with a tiny drop or two of distilled water from a clean pipette, and ever-so-gently wiped that part down with a very fine and clean cloth. That didn’t remove the marks. Next I went to inspect my camera’s film back. Nothing I could find that would cause multiple lines. My thinking is if the camera was responsible then the lines would be linear and not wavy. If a particle of something bounced around in the magazine then the scratch wouldn’t be a wave nor a perfect line for that matter. It would be more like a periodically spaced kind of scratch/mark.

I went to revisit my Ultrafine Xtreme 100 and 400 negatives and there were no lines. I’m really at a loss here.

I think for now I will put my shooting on hold until I can figure this all out and what others suggestions might be. Thanks.
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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A picture says more than a 1000 words in this case!

I don't have a digital camera. My phone is a GoPhone and won't be the best candidate for getting close to the negative to snap a picture. Quality will be extremely poor, I'm afraid. I wish I could show an example.
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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Post a scan or photo of the negative. Don't stop shooting. ;-)

I don't have a film scanner but I do have flat-bed. I scanned a strip of the negative and I don't see the lines??? Now I am really going loco. First time using a flat-bed to scan a 120 strip. At least I get to see a positive preview of some of my work, lol. Maybe not the best of quality like a negative scanner would be but it's a start I guess.

If the lines don't show in the scan then maybe they won't show when I use my enlarger? Hmmmmm.
 

Kino

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The obvious question is: who processed the film?

I assume you are speaking of base-side scratches; very light emulsion-side scratches can be "healed" by rewashing the film (i.e., back to fix, rinse and dry).
 
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Kino

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OK. Hmmm...

What are the "amplitude" of the scratches?

In any event, you could use "nose grease" or Edwal No-Scratch to hide light base-side scratches.
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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OK. Hmmm...

What are the "amplitude" of the scratches?

In any event, you could use "nose grease" or Edwal No-Scratch to hide light base-side scratches.

The peaks don't extend up/down too much. Shallow.

The top wave is more resembling of the scratch, throughout the full length of the film.


sine-variations.png
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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I remember trying to order the Edwal wetting agent before I started developing film and some store couldn't sell it to me because of something with shipping it. I don't know if this would go for all Edwal products or if it depends on the store? In that event I ended up getting photo-flo instead.
 

Kino

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If you processed it, didn't use any sort of film developing reel loading device and it runs the entire length of the film strip, to include exposed leaders on each end, then I would say it is a packaging defect.
 

Kino

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The Edwal No-Scratch is a post-processing treatment of some sort of mineral oil in a solvent that you spread across the negative scratch just before you print.

The liquid fills-in the scratch and allows the light to pass without registering on the print. Same principals as wet scanning or wet-gate printing we use here in the motion picture lab, except we use perchlorethylene...

Are these base or emulsion scratches?
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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I use stainless steel tanks and reels. In my time of ever doing photography I used a plastic tank only once. When I was a student at Hallmark.

I will switch to the FP4 Plus for this time to try a different film. I will let you know what happens.

I did another scan of the negative strip and the lines aren't showing up. Odd.
 

Kino

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A base-side scratch acts as a prism; diverting the light from passing straight through the negative and showing up as a "density minus" streak on the print or scan.

Any liquid that is film-base safe, meaning it won't melt the film base or cause the emulsion to run-off, can be used to temporarily fill-in the scratch long enough to print and minimize the effect of the scratch. The real issue is finding a fluid that has the same relative refractive index (bends light) as the film base. This is difficult and not every fluid works well...

We use Perchlorethylene, which is more commonly known as dry-cleaning fluid and it has a near perfect refractive index; that being said, you don't want to mess with it. We have elaborate ventilation and recovery systems in place to protect the operator and environment. Very damaging to the liver and your health!

If the scratches are very, very fine, the slightest "bump" of the scanner negative carrier can make them "disappear" because of light polarization and diffraction. Sounds like you could simply preview the scan and move the carrier in tiny amounts laterally until the scratch is minimized or disappears and then make your "good" scan.

You can carefully examine the leaders sticking out of the unused film cartridges with a magnifier prior to loading. If you find those same scratches, I would return the film for exchange or refund.
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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I am not as sure but on the base side it looks like the scratches are a little raised maybe? Something a little different than when viewing from the emulsion side. One part looks like the scratch had a purplish color with it.
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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On my flat-bed scan I don't notice anything lesser on it. The scan quality kind of stinks anyway. Film scanner would be more of the way to go.
 

Kino

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Starting to sound more and more like a manufacturing defect.
 

AgX

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-) are there actual marks to be seen at reflected image (ridges, impressions, lack of emulsion) ?
-) width of the mark ?
-)does the image in transmission of the fault show plus-density our min-density ?
 
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What About Bob

What About Bob

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-) are there actual marks to be seen at reflected image (ridges, impressions, lack of emulsion) ?
-) width of the mark ?
-)does the image in transmission of the fault show plus-density our min-density ?

When I angled the strip I didn't notice any light reflecting or bouncing off the marks. When I look on the base side of the film, the appearance of the marks have this kind of relief feel to them, raised?

The width of the marks look tight; meaning they are very thin, like what the hair of a paint brush bristle would be like. Now take about a good handful of those bristles, closely spaced together, and imagine them going over the full length of the film in a wavy pattern.

As far as density goes, the area where the marks are at have this extra color or maybe an extra line color? It is shown above or below the scratch line, depending on the position that you are viewing the negative from. The mark is white with that extra line color so I would make a say that from the looks of the marks that they could block maybe some of the light? When I scanned the image on my flat-bed, don't have a film scanner, those marks/scratches didn't show up. I made a second scan just to be sure and also made sure that dust and corrections fields in the scanner software wasn't enabled. Still wasn't able get those marks to show.
 

Tom Kershaw

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I can corroborate this as I've just seen this problem today. Very frustrating as experienced with fairly important rolls (2x Delta 100 '120'). Other 5 films processed (1x HP5 Plus, 4x Kodak) do not show these scratches. I'm tempted to stick with Kodak film at the moment as I've just hopefully dealt with another ILFORD problem in terms of HP5 sensitivity to stop baths.
 

MattKing

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Do the marks show up in either a scan of the negatives or an enlarged optical print of the negatives?
 
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