Very specific question about D76 self life.

m1ckDELTA · Jul 29, 2014

Very specific question about D76 shelf life.

I know it's been discussed before, I've read what seems every post on the subject but nothing felt definitive for the following:

Shelf life of D76, diluted 1:1, stored in a 1 quart (9375ml) Datatainer bottle that is half full. I developed a roll with the first half about 5 days ago. What is remaining in the bottle is unused.

Thanks in advance.

MattKing · Jul 29, 2014

Impossible to answer definitively. I wouldn't risk valuable film on it.

Kodak says: "If you use D-76 Developer diluted 1:1, dilute it just before you use it, and discard it after processing one batch of film.Don’t reuse or replenish this solution."

Kodak also says that the storage life of D76 1:1 in a tray is 24 hours.

Hatchetman · Jul 29, 2014

holy cow, I've used D76 months old in a partially full bottle with no ill effects.

though it was kept in a light proof vessel.

Kyle M. · Jul 29, 2014

I've used D-76 stock that was mixed 3-4 months previously and my images looked as good as when it was fresh. This was mixed using tap water, and stored in a non air tight container in a dark room. I have since switched to Rodinal mainly because of how long it took me to get through a gallon of D-76.

MattKing · Jul 29, 2014

Hatchetman said:
holy cow, I've used D76 months old in a partially full bottle with no ill effects.

though it was kept in a light proof vessel.

Are you referring to D-76 that has already been diluted 1:1 or stock D76?

In either case, is the small economy worth what you have already invested in the exposed film?

MattKing · Jul 29, 2014

Kyle M. said:
I've used D-76 stock that was mixed 3-4 months previously and my images looked as good as when it was fresh. This was mixed using tap water, and stored in a non air tight container in a dark room. I have since switched to Rodinal mainly because of how long it took me to get through a gallon of D-76.

You are referring to stock D76, not already diluted D76.

Kyle M. · Jul 29, 2014

MattKing said:
You are referring to stock D76, not already diluted D76.

Yes I am referring to D-76 stock, not diluted to 1:1 as the OP suggested. I imagine 1:1 wouldn't last as long, but I could be completely wrong. I was using a 1 gallon datatainer with screw on lid, while I'm sure it was better than nothing I can't see it being air tight.

Hatchetman · Jul 29, 2014

Yes, I was referring to stock solution.

Bill Burk · Jul 29, 2014

m1ckDELTA,

There's a lot of agreement here...

It's the "diluted 1:1" fact that makes your scenario uncertain. If you hadn't diluted it, if it were stock solution in a half-full bottle... 5 days would be "just fine" - though I would not do sensitometric tests using the leftover half, a casual roll of film would be fine. I've gone 2 weeks on half-bottles of stock without worry, though much after a couple weeks I tend to test or discard...

If you wanted to develop a valuable roll of film, then you want the very best for it... And fresh mixed, or seasoned to taste (because there is lore about the benefits of allowing D-76 to age slightly) is best.

p.s. I work for Kodak but the opinion and position I take is my own and not necessarily that of EKC.

m1ckDELTA · Jul 29, 2014

In a 1:1 dilution or stock?

This is the problem I have encountered with every post I've read on the subject. I'll just test it on my own for now and order some 8oz and 4oz bottles for the future. Thanks for the insight, everyone. My frustration aside it is much appreciated.

tkamiya · Jul 29, 2014

You can test it, but I'm not sure if you can test it with enough repetition and control to come up with a definitive answer. Kodak says to dilute immediately before use. Then lists no storage instructions for diluted developers. That tells me something.

It is also known that D76 lasts significantly longer than Kodak says in most conditions. But, most of us are incapable of conducting the same scientific test Kodak can.

As to half full stock solution, I always doubted what it really meant. Say I have a gallon jug of D76. I open it, use some, cap it, and store it. Repeat this process over a course of few weeks to months and come to half full point. This is a lot different from filling the tank to half full, then leave it capped. Worse, say it's at 1/2 full point. Open it and use some. Cap it again and store. Use some, and so on. At this point, it's less than half full, so the spec storage life doesn't mean anything - unless of course, the bottle is 16 oz and use 8 oz at a time.

Personally, to avoid this issue, I always dilute right before use. Then I also use a bunch of smaller bottles rather than one big one. Then after 6 months, test before use or discard.

gone · Jul 29, 2014

If you've diluted it 5 days ago, and it's been in a half full bottle since then, I would throw it out.

Pioneer · Jul 29, 2014

momus said:
If you've diluted it 5 days ago, and it's been in a half full bottle since then, I would throw it out.

Absolutely. Not worth using for good film.

Normal, stock dilution, D76 will last for at least 6 months, possibly longer but mine never lasts that long, it is used up before that time period is up.

1:1 dilution is used immediately. If not, toss it.

A new bag of D76 doesn't cost enough to chance a bad batch in my humble opinion.

Bill Burk · Jul 29, 2014

m1ckDELTA said:
In a 1:1 dilution or stock?

This is the problem I have encountered with every post I've read on the subject. I'll just test it on my own for now and order some 8oz and 4oz bottles for the future. Thanks for the insight, everyone. My frustration aside it is much appreciated.

Wait? Did you already dilute the developer? In a 1:1 solution, use it right away. Stock keeps well.

So to illustrate... a bag of powdered D-76 that makes a gallon of stock, makes four one-quart bottles of stock solution... It's the perfect setup.

When you have some film to develop, you open one of the quart bottles, and mix it 1:1 right then as much as you need for now... into a beaker or temporary bottle, just to use right then. If you used 8 ounces of stock, the one-quart bottle will have 24 ounces still in it... of stock solution. That will keep "just fine" for a week or two without any worries.

After a few weeks, if I haven't finished off that bottle, I'll decide if it's worth using or dumping on a case-by-case basis... Value of the film, backlog of developing, how many bags of powder I have, how many full bottles, whether I want to mix a fresh batch now and develop another day... All capricious decisions that don't really have any significant risks.

I wouldn't break it down to 8 ounce bottles. Up to you, but for me that's just a little too much bottle washing.

m1ckDELTA · Jul 29, 2014

I just hung the roll to dry. A cursory look at the negs and they appear to look good. I'll scan them tomorrow. It's a roll of Tri-X shot at ASA 200 with an Electro 35 on a sunny afternoon, in dappled shade and direct sunlight, and developed using 5 day old 1:1 D76 at 20° C for 10.5 minutes. If anyone is interested I'll post a link to Flickr after I scan them. It's only the second roll of Tri-X I've developed since my teens. Back then, between 13 and 17, I must have developed a few hundred rolls. It's amazing how much one forgets in 34 years.

Again, thanks for the insight.

Bill Burk · Jul 30, 2014

m1ckDELTA said:
I just hung the roll to dry.

All for the best...

Xmas · Jul 30, 2014

m1ckDELTA said:
... nothing felt definitive for the following:

Shelf life of D76, diluted 1:1, stored in a 1 quart (9375ml) Datatainer bottle that is half full. I developed a roll with the first half about 5 days ago. What is remaining in the bottle is unused.

Kodak has not provided a shelf life statement for 1+1 storage.
Nor does Ilford for ID11an equivalent developer.
Some developers go off rapidly at working dilutions but I don't think this is (as) true of D76... as D96 is used for cine film processors and is more dilute.
Id flood your bottle with one of the inert gas preservation things even if it was stock.
Im very cautious I mix up 2 litre stock let cool in concertina style bottle with no air for 1.5 litre multi tank and run 20 films through over a weekend.
Repeatability is important.

Ian Grant · Jul 30, 2014

Once diluted the Sulphite is giving less protection to the developing agents, it helps prevent aerial oxidation which will take place in a half full bottle.

You might get away with storing D76 diluted 1+1 for a couple of days, there's probably a more noticeable drop in activity after 5 days.

If I still used D76/ID-11 I'd use it repenished, I used it that way for many years and it's very consistent.

Ian

Roger Cole · Jul 30, 2014

Kyle M. said:
I've used D-76 stock that was mixed 3-4 months previously and my images looked as good as when it was fresh. This was mixed using tap water, and stored in a non air tight container in a dark room. I have since switched to Rodinal mainly because of how long it took me to get through a gallon of D-76.

I've used stock a year old with zero problems.

Diluting it makes for a different question though.

removed account4 · Jul 30, 2014

a pouch of d76 costs very little money
the tap water or distilled water costs very little
stirring it up is like ... 4-5 mins
a roll of film costs $5?
there is a lot of energy spent exposing film ...

if it was me, and id toss the old diluted developer and not look back ..

a lot of effort is made to save something like 15 cents ..

el wacho · Jul 30, 2014

it does beg the question why Beutler's Part A at 50gr/Litre of sodium sulfite keeps well and D76 1:1 wouldn't...

cliveh · Jul 30, 2014

MattKing said:
Impossible to answer definitively. I wouldn't risk valuable film on it.

Kodak says: "If you use D-76 Developer diluted 1:1, dilute it just before you use it, and discard it after processing one batch of film.Dont reuse or replenish this solution."

Kodak also says that the storage life of D76 1:1 in a tray is 24 hours.

Matt is dead on.

bvy · Jul 30, 2014

Occasionally I'll get suspended white matter of some sort in my D76 if I keep it too long -- even in full, airtight bottle. That prompted me to dump several bottles and resort to the one liter powder packs.

Xmas · Jul 30, 2014

el wacho said:
it does beg the question why Beutler's Part A at 50gr/Litre of sodium sulfite keeps well and D76 1:1 wouldn't...

D76 1+1 has borax as well...

PartA lasts 6 months in full bottle, OP was storing 1+1 half full.

But there is not a formal life statement for 1+1 in full bottle either.

m1ckDELTA · Jul 30, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Diluting it makes for a different question though.

Not a different question at all since that is the exact question I asked. Arrrgghh. Whatever.

Anyway, for those who read my OP and care Dead Link Removed with the following specs:

[*=2]RAW color scan from PIE XA and Vuescan using "Slide film" setting with no exposure lock or film base color lock.
[*=2]Inverted from negative to positive in LR5. No other editing. No cropping.
[*=2]Camera used is the Yashica Electro 35 GSN.
[*=2]Film is Tri-X 400 exposed at 200 ASA and developed in 5 day old 1:1 D76 at 20° C for 10.5 minutes. Full processing chart is here.

I did some extreme bracketing; a sticky shutter released made me suspect a problem with the main switch assembly stop pad and one way to test it is with extreme bracketing. The resulting negatives indicate no mechanical or electronic exposure issues (user initiated ones were another matter).

In the future I'll use the exposure lock and film base color lock since it helps with consistency throughout the roll due to color cast caused by the film base. For the purposes of testing the D76 I wanted minimal post.

If anyone knows a way to invert the scans without using curves I'm interested to know. Inverting the neg this way working backwards with all the parameters in LR.

Perhaps someone will find some of this useful in some small way. Perhaps not.

Again, I really appreciate the well considered and topical insight.

Very specific question about D76 self life.

m1ckDELTA

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