Vermeer , Is unde printing necessary ?

Q.G. · Oct 27, 2010

Marco B said:
Who said it needed to be in every garden centre for us all to get if one person could find it?

In amounts large enough for all of us? For all those old masters' paintings?
Do think this through, Marco...

But that's all academic.
There was no amber in those paintings.
And you can't find amber at the Dutch coast.

Marco B · Oct 27, 2010

Q.G. said:
But that's all academic.
There was no amber in those paintings.
And you can't find amber at the Dutch coast.

I fully agree, it was umber, not amber, in those paintings...

Photo Engineer · Oct 27, 2010

Fun thread, but as said earlier Amber could have been used in the varnish. After all, Amber in its fresh state is related to pine resin, sap or turpentine. The terms for Amber and Ambergis were the same until about 1400 and references to that period or earlier are often ambiguous.

In any case, fresh amber is sap and dry sap is amber in simple terms. Dissolving Amber in a solvent will create a varnish. Originally, Amber was called ηλεκτρον (electron) and the terms were gradually merged for both Ambergis and Amber calling them both Amber, and then the terms diverged as I note above.

I believe that both Umber and Amber may have been used in these earlier paintings, but for different purposes.

PE

Marco B · Oct 28, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
In any case, fresh amber is sap and dry sap is amber in simple terms. Dissolving Amber in a solvent will create a varnish. Originally, Amber was called ηλεκτρον (electron) and the terms were gradually merged for both Ambergis and Amber calling them both Amber, and then the terms diverged as I note above.

PE, you are right that fresh pine resin is still used as a painting varnish, it is the stuff I called "Damar". However, I think - in general - the term "Amber" is today only used for the more or less "fossilized" hardened variant, the ones used as gem stones, and known to sometimes contain tens of millions of years old fossils of insects etc. Like those famous pictures of amber with millions of years old mosquitoes.

I don't think the term "amber" is in general use for fresh dried pine resin today, where again the term "resin" or "damar" are more common and avoid the confusion with the "fossilized" variant.

Q.G. · Oct 28, 2010

Marco B said:
PE, you are right that fresh pine resin is still used as a painting varnish, it is the stuff I called "Damar". However, I think - in general - the term "Amber" is today only used for the more or less "fossilized" hardened variant, the ones used as gem stones, and known to sometimes contain tens of millions of years old fossils of insects etc. Like those famous pictures of amber with millions of years old mosquitoes.

I don't think the term "amber" is in general use for fresh dried pine resin today, where again the term "resin" or "damar" are more common and avoid the confusion with the "fossilized" variant.

You're quite right, Marco.

But then, everybody lies, right?

Photo Engineer · Oct 28, 2010

Amber is also a recognized color, as in the phrase "it was an amber colored wine" and etc.

So, references are quite difficult in some cases, especially due to translation and transliteration problems.

PE

Q.G. · Oct 28, 2010

You're quite right.

But in the original post, the words archaeology, and coast were used, pointing towards the fossilized resin found on the south eastern Baltic coast.
In that same post, it was suggested that that stuf was also found on the Dutch coast, from which assumption/bit of misinformation it was then inferred that the old masters, and even van Gogh, used the material in their work.

The clues were all there.

Photo Engineer · Oct 28, 2010

Well, we may never know for sure!

PE

Q.G. · Oct 28, 2010

Will we ever know anything for sure?

Loris Medici · Oct 28, 2010

Errr, I think there are different terms in Turkish for silicone (silikon) and silicon (silisyum) and silica (silika) and silicate (silikat). Also, the Turkish equivalents of amber (kehribar) and ambergris (amber) are different too...

Anyway, thanks for bringing this painting related issue into consideration Mustafa (as a gum printer, I'm always interested in painting technique...), and thanks Marco - for the clarifications...

Regards,
Loris.

Marco B · Oct 29, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Amber is also a recognized color, as in the phrase "it was an amber colored wine" and etc.

So, references are quite difficult in some cases, especially due to translation and transliteration problems.

PE

You are right PE that definitions can be fluid and non-clear. Actually, it seems there is a multitude of terms being used for the different types of hardened resin used to create oil painting varnishes. Besides amber are dammar/damar, copal, mastic, rosin/colophonium and resin/gum terms often used and apparently intermingled, although in general, some of the terms are rather specific for a certain type of resin.

As an general overview to be taken "with a pinch of salt":

- Amber for fossilized hardened resin of often unclear origin
- Copal generally seems to be a synonym for the term "amber" as described in the sentence above.
- Dammar/Damar for resin from Dipterocarpaceae tropical trees from primarily India and Asia. This is a large family of different tree species (+/- 500 different species) belonging to the normal broad leaf flowering trees like oak, beech etc.
- Mastic seems be hardened resin from a specific broad leaf evergreen shrub: Pistacia lentiscus
- Rosin/colophonium for hardened resin extracted from pine trees.
- Resin and gum seem synonym, and seem general terms for the fluid extracted from trees, both still in its fluid, as well as hardened state (the resin polymerizes, probably in combination with oxygen from the air)

Again, the terms are often intermingled, and most of these resin types have other uses as well, for example in printing inks. In addition, chemically/synthetically created resins seem to have largely taken over the market for varnishes, probably both due to cost, and better characteristics (less yellowing, more robust).

Marco

2F/2F · Oct 29, 2010

I am not sure what you are talking about, but I am pretty sure that whatever it might be, it is off topic for the Website. I don't see the connection you are drawing between whatever it is you are talking about and photography when you say, "I think We like the pt pd process very much because its perfect underpainting and waits to be colored after the first print. This is a big sentence but I believe this." Perhaps The Lounge would have been a better place for this discussion.

Photo Engineer · Oct 29, 2010

Marco;

We also have Balsamic Resin here (not to be confused with Balsamic Vinegar which cannot be used as a Stop Bath ).

Balsamic Resin is a type of liquid sap on its way to becoming Amber. Frankincense is a type of Balsamic Resin and resembles Amber.

PE

Q.G. · Oct 29, 2010

Photo Engineer said:
Balsamic Resin is a type of liquid sap on its way to becoming Amber. Frankincense is a type of Balsamic Resin and resembles Amber.

But still very different things.

Amber is fossilized conifer resin.
Frankincense is fresh gum from a broad leaved shrub.
Balsamic resins is a collective term for smelly 'saps', both from conifer and broad leaved plants.
The only thing they really have in common is that they once where inside a living plant.

Photo Engineer · Oct 29, 2010

Another thing in common is that they can all turn into Ambers given enough time and the right environment. Frankincense most closely resembles Amber in appearance but being soft to the touch rather than hard IIRC. It has been a few years since I have handled any Frankincense.

PE

Vermeer , Is unde printing necessary ?

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