Venturing in to C41

alexmacphee · Jul 28, 2010

After many years of B&W processing, I'm on the point of venturing in to C41, and have bought the Tetenal C41 kit. I had thought of trying to get hold of one of those Jobo processor outfits, but I'm not so sure now, as it looks like I might just end up buying somebody else's problem, what with stories of motors wearing out and not having an easy repair option.

My estimated processing rate is likely to be no more than three or four rolls a month. I'm fairly well equipped for B&W with an assortment of stainless steel tanks and reels, and a number of Paterson System 4 tanks. So I'm looking to use the equipment I already have.

What practicalities should I be aware of?

wblynch · Jul 28, 2010

You just need to maintain temperature control through your process. C-41 development is nearly the same as black and white with the addition of an extra step if the bleach and fix are separate.

It's pretty easy and the times are quick so you can do it all in about 20 minutes.

alexmacphee · Jul 28, 2010

Excellent, thanks, that sounds do-able. I already use a water bath out of habit for my B&W stuff, and use a colour certified thermometer for that, so essentially I'll be doing the same thing but at a higher temperature and with a couple of extra wet steps. The temperature control might even be easier, as I've had trouble keeping it down to 20C in recent weeks, and had to have recourse to crushed ice in the water bath.

anikin · Jul 28, 2010

Before I had Jobo, I've done couple of rolls in a water bath in utility sink with excellent results. It's actually somewhat easier than BW because of shorter steps. The only trouble I had was with pouring in/out times from my old fr tank. 20 seconds was rather too long, so I was nervous. By the way, for me doing it in the sink is quicker than in Jobo, because I don't need to wait for Jobo to come up to the temperature. So try it, you'll be surprised how easy it is and how good the results are.

The only real trouble with color is getting a clean negative after the final rinse. I wish someone with experience would give a magic advice on how to always get a spotless roll of 35mm. (Is it at all possible?)

alexmacphee · Jul 28, 2010

If tank fill/empty time is significant, then perhaps I'd be better loading the plastic System 4 tanks rather than the steel tanks, because the System 4 tank has a very fast fill and empty time. I think it's about fifteen seconds or so to charge the steel tanks, which is of little significance when the dev time for FP4 is eleven to fifteen minutes. I'll make a point of hanging the films up to dry in the bathroom after someone's had a bath. That's usually the most dust-free environment in the house.

markbarendt · Jul 28, 2010

alexmacphee said:
If tank fill/empty time is significant, then perhaps I'd be better loading the plastic System 4 tanks rather than the steel tanks, because the System 4 tank has a very fast fill and empty time. I think it's about fifteen seconds or so to charge the steel tanks, which is of little significance when the dev time for FP4 is eleven to fifteen minutes. I'll make a point of hanging the films up to dry in the bathroom after someone's had a bath. That's usually the most dust-free environment in the house.

I use stainless Nikor tanks and they work just fine.

The first developer is the only step that has to be well timed and very close on temp.

Consistency in your process is more important than exactly 100f.

I start at 102F, then start the timer as soon as the tank is full, and start dumping at 3:00. (The temperature of the developer drops during the process and I get an average of about 100f.)

I start pouring in the bleach as close after 3:15 as I can. (I use separate bleach and fix.)

It is important to remember that your thermometer won't read the same as mine and my tanks dump an fill differently, season your process to your taste.

The bleach, fix, and stabilize steps go to completion so a little extra won't hurt so I don't dump then out until well after the full time has been reached.

Just FYI, the bleach step causes a reaction that off gasses so I don't cap the pour spout during that step, just slosh and spin or tilt and spin. There's enough gas to lift the large cap off the tank so if you do cap to invert you will need to pull the fill cap back off quickly.

wblynch · Jul 28, 2010

anikin said:
The only real trouble with color is getting a clean negative after the final rinse. I wish someone with experience would give a magic advice on how to always get a spotless roll of 35mm. (Is it at all possible?)

My home developed C41 comes out way cleaner and more spot free than commercially developed stuff. The closest Walgreen's is the worst, even though they have brand new equipment.

I live in dusty California but hanging from the shower rod works pretty good so far.

I mix all my chemicals with distilled water but wash with tap water.

srs5694 · Jul 28, 2010

anikin said:
The only real trouble with color is getting a clean negative after the final rinse. I wish someone with experience would give a magic advice on how to always get a spotless roll of 35mm. (Is it at all possible?)

Perhaps you should describe the problem(s) you're having -- water spots, dust specks, some sort of residue, etc.? FWIW, I don't have any of these problems; my C-41 comes out quite clean. My final step is a dunk in Kodak Final Rinse (for newer films) or Kodak Stabilizer (for older films). In either case, I mix it up with distilled water (the sort sold in supermarkets and drug stores in gallon jugs) rather than tap water. If you're using tap water, it's conceivable that yours has some gunk in it that's causing problems. It's also conceivable that your drying method or location is at fault. I air dry mine in my darkroom, but a dusty environment or using an air dryer that's less than 100% clean could conceivably cause problems.

anikin · Jul 29, 2010

Well, here is the more egregious example taken on Kodak Ektar film, 100% scan:

It highlights the two problems I'm often facing. First, Ektar base is very soft and I often get fine scratches. It does not happen as much with Fuji films. But the most annoying problem is the drying spots from the final rinse. These spots are rather exaggerated by the film scanner, with optical printing they are less noticeable, but they are still there.
This roll was run in all Kodak's flexicolor chemicals mixed in distilled water, final wash and final rinse are both distilled water. Jobo CPE-2 processor. I washed the tank prior to use, and drying is done in a clean drying enclosure.

It appears that the spots are almost always on the back side of the film. My current theory is that these are additives in the final rinse that are left over after water dries off.

Here's what I tried so far:

I tried adding a bit of photo-flo and/or 91% rubbing alcohol to the final rinse without improvement in the results.
I tried diluting final rinse without improvement in the results.
I tried filtering final rinse through fine metal coffee filter prior to use without noticeable improvement.
I tried wiping the film back with my fingers dipped in final rinse after hanging it. More scratches and no improvement in the results.
I tried wiping the film back with squeegee. Too many scratches, won't do it again.
I tried wiping the film back with a kitchen sponge dipped in final rinse. I get a few perfectly clean frames and a few frames with huge drying spots.
I tried drying film horizontally curled in a spiral. Results are better, but still a few drying spots can be found, usually at the lower edge of the film.
I tried getting final rinse off of the film before hanging by spinning it in a salad spinner prior to hanging in a drying enclosure. Results varied from slightly better to dramatically worse.
I tried drying film in a shower after running hot water for a few minutes. No improvements.
I tried three-step wash process: first tank of distilled water with a drop of Photo-flo followed by several tanks of distilled water until there is no more foam. I can reduce number of big particles that way, but drying spots still show up.

The best results I got so far is when I use a bit of Photo-Flo and rubbing alcohol in distilled water instead of the final rinse, hang the film in the shower and then pour the remains of Photo-flo on the hanging film from top to bottom. But, PE said that not using final rinse is not a good idea, so the search is still on...

So, any more suggestions?

wblynch · Jul 29, 2010

anikin said:
So, any more suggestions?

wow, that's a lot.

Maybe I'm just lucky but the only thing I do is wash using the "Ilford method" 10/20/30 inversions then pour in the stabilizer for 30-60 seconds. When I pull the film out I gently "squeegee" it off with my first two fingers. (I know, many people advise against this).

Then I hang the film to dry 2-4 hours in the shower. I don't get any scratches or blobs or blotches.

I do get a few dust spots or fibers when I scan, maybe 5 or 6 each frame, that I spot out in Photoshop but not like what you've shown us.

I did notice when I first mixed the stabilizer that came with my Arista C41 kit it had some gooey/stringy substance that didn't dissolve completely. I filtered that out.

alexmacphee · Jul 29, 2010

anikin said:
So, any more suggestions?

Virgin sacrifice?

You seem to have been uncommonly comprehensive already. My first thoughts on scanning your report was that it might be something in the dev stage rather than the rinse stage, but you seem to have addressed that by noting that the spotting is on the back of the film. Although my first batch isn't going to be Ektar, I do have Ektar in the freezer awaiting an opportunity, so I'll keep an eye out for problems of this type.

Seeing the reports here of success, however, I'm cautiously optimistic about my first foray into colour processing. It's only taken me about four decades.

pentaxuser · Jul 29, 2010

Alex I have been a Tetenal then Speedibrews kit user as well. Just be aware that there are two bodies of opinion on whether to use blix or separate bleach and fix. My negs so far look OK but then again they aren't very old. However some cast serious doubts on whether blix does as permanent a job on the negs as bleach and fix.

From what I can gather using blix one shot then dump will have the least tendency to adversely affect the negs long term. The Fuji-Hunt C41 kits as sold by AgPhotographic uses separate bleach and fix. It's now about £35 but will do 60-80 35mm films so works out actually less expensive than DDX for B&W films.

2x 30 secs pre-wash in the right temp water should help prevent much change in dev temp over 3 mins 15 secs.

Let us know how you get on.

pentaxuser

anikin · Jul 29, 2010

Virgin sacrifice?

Hey, I have not tried that yet. Know any virgins in Oregon? (EVIL GRIN)

Anyway don't take it as discouragement. I'm being overly pedantic. This stuff mostly disappears if I enable scratch/dust removal in the scanner or print optically. It's just that I like the challenge of trying to get 100% perfect negatives.

Sirius Glass · Jul 29, 2010

anikin said:
Well, here is the more egregious example taken on Kodak Ektar film, 100% scan:

It highlights the two problems I'm often facing. First, Ektar base is very soft and I often get fine scratches. It does not happen as much with Fuji films. But the most annoying problem is the drying spots from the final rinse. These spots are rather exaggerated by the film scanner, with optical printing they are less noticeable, but they are still there.
This roll was run in all Kodak's flexicolor chemicals mixed in distilled water, final wash and final rinse are both distilled water. Jobo CPE-2 processor. I washed the tank prior to use, and drying is done in a clean drying enclosure.

It appears that the spots are almost always on the back side of the film. My current theory is that these are additives in the final rinse that are left over after water dries off.

Here's what I tried so far:

I tried adding a bit of photo-flo and/or 91% rubbing alcohol to the final rinse without improvement in the results.
I tried diluting final rinse without improvement in the results.
I tried filtering final rinse through fine metal coffee filter prior to use without noticeable improvement.
I tried wiping the film back with my fingers dipped in final rinse after hanging it. More scratches and no improvement in the results.
I tried wiping the film back with squeegee. Too many scratches, won't do it again.
I tried wiping the film back with a kitchen sponge dipped in final rinse. I get a few perfectly clean frames and a few frames with huge drying spots.
I tried drying film horizontally curled in a spiral. Results are better, but still a few drying spots can be found, usually at the lower edge of the film.
I tried getting final rinse off of the film before hanging by spinning it in a salad spinner prior to hanging in a drying enclosure. Results varied from slightly better to dramatically worse.
I tried drying film in a shower after running hot water for a few minutes. No improvements.
I tried three-step wash process: first tank of distilled water with a drop of Photo-flo followed by several tanks of distilled water until there is no more foam. I can reduce number of big particles that way, but drying spots still show up.

The best results I got so far is when I use a bit of Photo-Flo and rubbing alcohol in distilled water instead of the final rinse, hang the film in the shower and then pour the remains of Photo-flo on the hanging film from top to bottom. But, PE said that not using final rinse is not a good idea, so the search is still on...

So, any more suggestions?

Just hang it in the shower and do not wipe, squeegee, ...

Steve

srs5694 · Jul 29, 2010

Some observations and comments:

The biggest single problem in your sample is the line through the middle of the image. This line appears to be very straight and perfectly aligned with the top and bottom of the image. Assuming it's running lengthwise down the roll, this is consistent with a scratch caused in the camera. In my experience, scratches caused during processing are usually much less straight and parallel with the edges of the film.
The spots in the image don't look like drying marks to me; they look more like crud on the film. It could be you've got contamination somewhere, and maybe not even in the final rinse step. I'd suggest mixing all your chemicals with distilled water, at least as a test, and doing a very thorough cleaning of your tank and reels. OTOH, you can examine the negatives with your eyeballs, which may be telling you it's drying marks. If so, you should certainly trust your eyes rather than my analysis of your scan.
Kodak stabilizer is composed of a combination of Photo Flo and formalin, so there's no need to dilute it with Photo Flo. Final Rinse is a bit different, but I don't know the details, aside from the fact that it lacks the formalin. In any event, I wouldn't advise mucking with the composition of your final rinse, except to mix it with distilled water.
When I first started my own B&W processing, I had problems with drying marks. They went away when I made a few changes to my procedure, including using distilled water for the Photo Flo, not agitating the Photo Flo by inversion (I just spin the tank a bit), and shaking off as much excess Photo Flo as possible before removing the film from the reel. I'm not sure which of these changes was important, since I implemented them all simultaneously. I later began C-41 processing and used the same procedures with it, but I don't know if using other procedures would produce drying marks with C-41 film.
FWIW, I don't use a squeegee or my hand to remove excess water. I've scratched one or two rolls that way early on, and that's plenty to discourage such a practice. I don't think this is your problem, but I thought I'd mention it anyhow.
Where are you located? Do you have air conditioning, air filtration, or other air-modifying technology in your house? I ask because it could be that extreme humidity, temperature, or air contaminants (pollution, dust, etc.) are causing problems. Maybe a drying cabinet or film blow dryer would help. Maybe drying in another location in your home would help.

i40west · Aug 4, 2010

I mix everything with distilled water, put Photo-flo in the stabilizer, all the obvious stuff. I guess it helps a little, but almost all the time the drying marks are so bad that I have to re-wash and re-stabilize the film and try again, and eventually get results that aren't quite as bad. I have had significant success wiping off drying marks with an anti-static cloth.

However, I have resorted to doing a black-and-white style water wash and Photo-flo, which leaves the film perfect, then scanning, then going back and doing the stabilizer afterward. It's pretty extreme and it's a pain to do the stabilizer/final rinse with cut film, but at least I can get clean scans that way.

hrst · Aug 4, 2010

Please also see my post at (there was a url link here which no longer exists) . I prefer using a squeegee because it doesn't cause me any scratches, especially not on color films, but it helped me with drying marks. I had many long drying marks with a round blob and using a squeegee almost completely solved the problem. They come from flowing water drops. As water evaporates through their way down, relative gunk content rises until water has evaporated completely leaving a streak with a blob. Even with distilled water, some dust from air can mix with water drops. Even just faster drying (with filtered air, of course) can help with this, but removing most of the water before air-drying is undoubtedly the best method. Air knives are scratch-safe way used in industry, but as they are too complicated for us hobbyists, we can use squeegees, also used by movie industry in the past before air knives. If the squeegees are kept clean and changed when they get too hard, this procedure does not cause scratches.

I agree that a very straight line that goes all the way during the film probably cannot be from a squeegee, but rather from camera. This is because when you wipe your film with a squeegee, that does not go perfectly straight so easily. However, this cannot be deducted from a single image, as even a squeegee can leave behind a 36 mm long very straight scratch.

srs5694 · Aug 6, 2010

i40west said:
I have resorted to doing a black-and-white style water wash and Photo-flo, which leaves the film perfect, then scanning, then going back and doing the stabilizer afterward. It's pretty extreme and it's a pain to do the stabilizer/final rinse with cut film, but at least I can get clean scans that way.

This sounds to me as if your stabilizer/final rinse is bad. Have you used just one batch of the stuff, or more than one? If the former, try buying something else, and maybe another brand, as well, if that's practical.

Another option might be to mix your own using Photo Flo. PE posted a formula a couple of weeks ago, IIRC; it's just water, Photo Flo, and formalin.

anikin · Aug 6, 2010

i40west, thank you for confirming my suspicions. That's exactly my conclusion: the only way to get perfectly clean 35mm negatives is to skip final rinse and use photo-flo in distilled water.

srs5694, yes the scratch is from my camera. The backplate is not very level and scratches the back if I rewind too fast. For the spots, I'm almost positive it comes from the final rinse drying on the back of the film - replacing final rinse with photo-flo gets almost perfect results. I have not tried mixing my own final rinse. Thank you for the suggestion. I'll add it to the list of things to try.

hrst, what brand of squeegee do you use? I'd like to give it a second try. My sponge wiping experiment gave very promising results, so I suspect your suggestion has the most potential.

i40west · Aug 7, 2010

srs5694 said:
This sounds to me as if your stabilizer/final rinse is bad. Have you used just one batch of the stuff, or more than one? If the former, try buying something else, and maybe another brand, as well, if that's practical.

I've done multiple batches, and mixed with distilled water, but I've only been using the Tetenal chemistry. I've now got a bottle of Kodak Flexicolor Final Rinse sitting here (that stuff is not easy to find) so I'll be wanting to try that. I've got a backlog of about a dozen C-41 rolls to develop, so there will be no shortage of opportunity to test.

Without putting off the stabilizer until after scanning, I have had improvement just by random chance: when the drying marks look terrible, wet the film and put it in stabilizer again, then try drying again with some varied technique (more "squeegeeing" (I only use fingers) or less or none, drying with a hair dryer instead of letting it hang, etc).

It's worth noting that I live in an area where, this time of year, 85% humidity is normal and higher is common. This may have something to do with it, as well.

Venturing in to C41

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