Velvia, Does it make sense for me??

RattyMouse · Nov 30, 2014

In a few short days I am off to Kyoto for 7 days of nothing but shooting film. I had planned to shoot some Velvia film but now am reconsidering. First off, I am shooting all 6 x 7 format and never plan to project slides this size. I'm wondering if it makes any logical sense to shoot this film when my desired output is a print. In that case, I should buy more color negative film (400H). I do have some Astia 100F in my freezer and I'm going to bring 3-4 rolls of this film to shoot, just to work it off. But for film that I will buy in Japan, I'm thinking that I should perhaps keep all my main shooting on color negative.

I know that I can end up with prints made from Velvia scans, I'm just not sure that this is suitable or now.

My goal is to hopefully make a bunch of images suitable for printing 16 x 20 or larger.

Thanks for any comments!

Trail Images · Nov 30, 2014

Although I've shot a variety of films over the years, the majority of my work has been with transparency or positives. With that said, 95% of that work has been with Velvia 50 to date in both 6x7 and 4x5. Additionally, I've printed and sold many images with the resulting prints made with Velvia in both direct Cibachrome / Ilfochrome prints and also scan outputs to inkjet. If you've worked and used mostly negatives for prints then it's probably a good bet to stick with it.
If you're looking for a different look then shoot some Velvia and see what you think. It's all personal tastes in the end.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 30, 2014

I have not used colour negative film in my Pentax 67 since I got the beast (5 years ago), and for the other cameras in the stable, Portra 160 is a very occasional emulsion. All my printing comes off Velvia 50 transparencies, although the task runs into the thousands of dollars annually. You'd need to brush up, sharply, on the nuances of exposure (in-camera) and scanning for print production if that is your end use. Exposure in-camera will determine how well the print comes out (as well as how much you are looking to spend). Can't rely on software to correct any sort of exposure errors with Velvia. That's how unforgiving it is with contrast and spectrals.

If only snapshots from day to day, don't bother. The high cost of Velvia really doesn't justify wandering around shooting anything that moves (especially people) willy-nilly when colour negative film would be cheaper in quantity. But the best prints caught on Velvia will easily go up to 16x20, or larger (just make sure you use a tripod as camera vibration or introduced movement will be highly visible at enlargements).

Truzi · Dec 1, 2014

I can't really help, except to say if you haven't tried Velvia, by all means bring some. Even pro scans to prints will be wonderful. If you have used Velvia before, then you know whether you want the look.

My first time with Velvia was vacation snapshots on Whiteface Mountain (of Lake Placid) in New York. I had no idea how to use it, meter it, filter, etc. I just decided to try it with the camera on auto. Here are some scans of the slides. Keep in mind I'm not very good in general, let alone with something like Velvia (or even composition):

Trail to the summit
The "Castle"
Lake Placid
Lake Placid 2 (dare I say no worse than the lousy wikipedia photo? lol)

I have better photos (still bad), but they have identifiable people, and I don't put that on the web.

StoneNYC · Dec 1, 2014

If you shoot any large-format all, you should be sure to bring extra money and pick up a bunch of 4x5 Velvia50 since you can only know get it in Japan.

Heck you should take up a collection for other people!!

I Think that it depends on the scenes that you're going to be in, as to which film you should use, 400H is faster, use that for the interiors and use Velvia100/50 for the bright colorful images.

I find 400 too fast for most daylight work in any clear day.

But something else to consider, switching from 400H to a transparency film, if you don't have much experience, you have to be more precise with exposure, if you're not experienced with the film you're likely to come out with mistakes.

Good luck in your decision.

tokam · Dec 1, 2014

Don't forget that Japan is now in winter and that daylight hours will be reduced. Shooting 50-100 ISO will be a challenge.

RattyMouse · Dec 1, 2014

tokam said:
Don't forget that Japan is now in winter and that daylight hours will be reduced. Shooting 50-100 ISO will be a challenge.

Yes, I am aware of this. I'm only a 2 hour flight from Kyoto so the weather where I am isnt radically different from Japan. The air will be 1000 times cleaner so more light will get through than what I'm used to!

I intend to be out all day from sunrise to sunset so all lighting conditions will get a fair shot at my film!

RattyMouse · Dec 1, 2014

StoneNYC said:
.

But something else to consider, switching from 400H to a transparency film, if you don't have much experience, you have to be more precise with exposure, if you're not experienced with the film you're likely to come out with mistakes.

Good luck in your decision.

Bracketing! I'll be bracketing any choice shots I find so that along with the excellent meters in my Fuji rangefinders should take care of exposure. I've shot a bunch of Provia, Astia and a smattering of Velvia with these cameras and rarely ever blow out any skies. Often if there is a problem, it's that there is under exposure, not over.

I'm not sure that I totally understand the difference between Velvia 50, Velvia 100, and Velvia 100F. I always thought that the 50 version was the best (from what I read) but perhaps the 100 speeds are what I should be looking at.

I think that I'll buy a box of 5 rolls and leave it at that. 5 rolls of Velvia along with 4 rolls of Astia 100F (220 size) should be enough E-6 for me. I shot a lot of 400H last year in Japan and REALLY enjoyed the results that I got. I should stick mostly with what I know I will like rather than play with the unknown.

RattyMouse · Dec 1, 2014

Truzi said:
I can't really help, except to say if you haven't tried Velvia, by all means bring some. Even pro scans to prints will be wonderful. If you have used Velvia before, then you know whether you want the look.

My first time with Velvia was vacation snapshots on Whiteface Mountain (of Lake Placid) in New York. I had no idea how to use it, meter it, filter, etc. I just decided to try it with the camera on auto. Here are some scans of the slides. Keep in mind I'm not very good in general, let alone with something like Velvia (or even composition):

Trail to the summit
The "Castle"
Lake Placid
Lake Placid 2 (dare I say no worse than the lousy wikipedia photo? lol)

I have better photos (still bad), but they have identifiable people, and I don't put that on the web.

Thank you for your reply. I'll check these out when I am home. My work computer has a *horrible* monitor and doesnt do any picture at all justice. Thanks again.

RattyMouse · Dec 1, 2014

Poisson Du Jour said:
But the best prints caught on Velvia will easily go up to 16x20, or larger (just make sure you use a tripod as camera vibration or introduced movement will be highly visible at enlargements).

Thank you for this tip!

Slixtiesix · Dec 1, 2014

I can recommend Velvia 100. Did not like Velvia 100F that much, Velvia 100 has more punch.

Poisson Du Jour · Dec 1, 2014

RattyMouse said:
Bracketing! I'll be bracketing any choice shots I find so that along with the excellent meters in my Fuji rangefinders should take care of exposure. I've shot a bunch of Provia, Astia and a smattering of Velvia with these cameras and rarely ever blow out any skies. Often if there is a problem, it's that there is under exposure, not over.

I'm not sure that I totally understand the difference between Velvia 50, Velvia 100, and Velvia 100F. I always thought that the 50 version was the best (from what I read) but perhaps the 100 speeds are what I should be looking at.

I think that I'll buy a box of 5 rolls and leave it at that. 5 rolls of Velvia along with 4 rolls of Astia 100F (220 size) should be enough E-6 for me. I shot a lot of 400H last year in Japan and REALLY enjoyed the results that I got. I should stick mostly with what I know I will like rather than play with the unknown.

Velvia 50: Traditional enriched palette with strong red and green and attractive blue. Gold standard for printing to Ilfochrome Classic when exposed with care
In Australia, it delivers eye-wateringly beautiful colouring on the lustrous Kodak Endura Professional metallic media, along with art papers for the giclée method.

Velvia 100: Highly enriched and known cyanic emulsion. Difficult to scan well and requires a lot of filtration (especially for Ilfochrome Classic printing).
Some photographers will like it, others will loathe it. Shadows and highlights require extra care. Whites are very crisp and clean.
Velvia 100F: Re-worked Velvia 50 palette with muted greens, dull mustard-yellow layer and awful ruddy-browns and reds. Often chosen for subdued dawn/dusk imaging.
As with the 100 Velvia, this has caused a lot of problems printing to Ilfochrome Classic. I dropped it from my printing regimen in 2007. Clients didn't like it.

Velvia 50 would give the least problems when printing and has the most faithful landscape reproduction and well-balanced enrichment. You might want to try the others but I'd rate the 100 version at EI80 and the 100F version also at EI80. You cannot really get the same palette enrichment even with a polariser when using 100F.

Bracketing
0.5 stop up and down for each exposure in marginal light. Scenes with a lot of shadow will be difficult to balance out (a spot meter is very handy for this). If the camera has it, +/- 0.3 stop in soft (diffuse) light is also good to give you a choice of rendition to chose from. You will lose about 1 to 1.3 stops of light in the scan to print process, meaning in post the image is given +0.5 or +0.6 to compensate for what the printer will lose (chiefly the Lambda/Pegasus high end printers, but applies to giclée too).

RattyMouse · Dec 1, 2014

Thank you again sir!

StoneNYC · Dec 1, 2014

Poisson Du Jour said:
Velvia 50: Traditional enriched palette with strong red and green and attractive blue. Gold standard for printing to Ilfochrome Classic when exposed with care
In Australia, it delivers eye-wateringly beautiful colouring on the lustrous Kodak Endura Professional metallic media, along with art papers for the giclée method.

View attachment 98876

Velvia 100: Highly enriched and known cyanic emulsion. Difficult to scan well and requires a lot of filtration (especially for Ilfochrome Classic printing).
Some photographers will like it, others will loathe it. Shadows and highlights require extra care. Whites are very crisp and clean.
Velvia 100F: Re-worked Velvia 50 palette with muted greens, dull mustard-yellow layer and awful ruddy-browns and reds. Often chosen for subdued dawn/dusk imaging.
As with the 100 Velvia, this has caused a lot of problems printing to Ilfochrome Classic. I dropped it from my printing regimen in 2007. Clients didn't like it.

Velvia 50 would give the least problems when printing and has the most faithful landscape reproduction and well-balanced enrichment. You might want to try the others but I'd rate the 100 version at EI80 and the 100F version also at EI80. You cannot really get the same palette enrichment even with a polariser when using 100F.

Bracketing
0.5 stop up and down for each exposure in marginal light. Scenes with a lot of shadow will be difficult to balance out (a spot meter is very handy for this). If the camera has it, +/- 0.3 stop in soft (diffuse) light is also good to give you a choice of rendition to chose from. You will lose about 1 to 1.3 stops of light in the scan to print process, meaning in post the image is given +0.5 or +0.6 to compensate for what the printer will lose (chiefly the Lambda/Pegasus high end printers, but applies to giclée too).

That's informative, thanks, now I'm even more upset at losing Velvia50 in sheet film...

You forgot one very important and significant factor, reciprocity.

Velvia100 has the improved reciprocity similar to Acros100, but Velvia50 does not.

This probably contributes to the (IMO) beautiful color shift that happens with Velvia50 in long exposures. Because the exposure time is much longer for some shots, increasing the exaggerated colors even more.

I'm about to make a new 4x5 purchase order and I'm still on the fence between ordering a few boxes of Velvia50 from Japan or supporting the already small US market and ordering Velvia100 to show US interest and to keep it around longer. Every purchase helps... Wish I could get Velvia50 in 8x10 still... Decisions decisions....

Trail Images · Dec 1, 2014

now I'm even more upset at losing Velvia50 in sheet film

+1

I've tried V-100, V-100f, Provia, Astia, and even with favorable reciprocity they provide, they do not provide the V-50 look.

Too bad even with the petition signing it was not to be saved. Although, we were lead to believe it was lost forever, but we soon found out it was still being sold in Japan.....:confused:
If it's still produced why not do a annual special run for us willing to purchase in bulk.........at the normal price of course....whatever that might be these days.

Alan Klein · Dec 1, 2014

If you're shooting landscapes with a tripod, go with Velvia 50. I've found the colors punch much better; didn;t like Velvia 100 as much. I've only printed a few of these at 8 1/2 x 11" using a flat bed scanner which are acceptable at that small size. I really should spend some time and money having the better ones scanned and printed digitally, and much larger, but professionally.

Velvia 50 https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/tags/velvia/
Velvia 100 https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/tags/velvia100/

Trail Images · Dec 1, 2014

Very good examples here, Alan. I agree about the 50 over the 100 usage too, although, your 100 stuff looks much nicer then any luck I ever had with that stuff. I like the extra stop and reciprocity advantage over the 50 with 100, but I'll take the short comings of the 50 anytime if I have the choice between the two. I just use my 50 reciprocity cheat sheet and dial in more time during long exposures when needed, seems to work just fine for me.

benjiboy · Dec 1, 2014

If I shoot pictures for enlarging into 20"X16" prints I prefer to colour negative film, I.S.O.160 or 400 Fuji or Kodak Pro films you will have no problem of getting good prints of that size from 6 X 7 negatives

mooseontheloose · Dec 1, 2014

Trail Images said:
+1

I've tried V-100, V-100f, Provia, Astia, and even with favorable reciprocity they provide, they do not provide the V-50 look.

Too bad even with the petition signing it was not to be saved. Although, we were lead to believe it was lost forever, but we soon found out it was still being sold in Japan.....:confused:
If it's still produced why not do a annual special run for us willing to purchase in bulk.........at the normal price of course....whatever that might be these days.

Yeah, I just checked. Still available in all formats (except 220) up to 8x10, 50 and 100 versions. So is Provia (100 and 400x), although only the 100 version is available in 220, 4x5, and 8x10.

Ratty -- I'm sure while you are here you'll head over to Yodobashi Camera, although I have to say that the film selection has gone down significantly since I moved here in March. It's about half of what it was. However, you will be able to pick up most films in most sizes. It's also worth checking their website if you want to stock up - delivery tends to be next day.

Poisson Du Jour · Dec 1, 2014

StoneNYC said:
That's informative, thanks, now I'm even more upset at losing Velvia50 in sheet film...

You forgot one very important and significant factor, reciprocity.

Velvia100 has the improved reciprocity similar to Acros100, but Velvia50 does not.

This probably contributes to the (IMO) beautiful color shift that happens with Velvia50 in long exposures. Because the exposure time is much longer for some shots, increasing the exaggerated colors even more.

I'm about to make a new 4x5 purchase order and I'm still on the fence between ordering a few boxes of Velvia50 from Japan or supporting the already small US market and ordering Velvia100 to show US interest and to keep it around longer. Every purchase helps... Wish I could get Velvia50 in 8x10 still... Decisions decisions....

I have never been concerned for reciprocity with RVP50. I am aware of a shift to green after approximately 30 minutes and many photographers exploit this in the landscape context to provide for an ethereal, alien-like landscape which works very well for e.g. seaside compositions or for the Aurora Australis (*Borealis to the US folks!) in which case RVP is allowed free-reign to exaggerate the colouring. Most of my exposures are about 1 sec up to around 45 seconds if I am concerned to avoid any casting.

My recommendation is that people try each of the Velvia's for say a couple of months each and lay them out on the lightbox to critically assess palettes and their handling of spectrals and shadows (I would say 100F and 50 do this better than 100, but that's my experience and eye talking to me). YMMV.

StoneNYC · Dec 1, 2014

Poisson Du Jour said:
I have never been concerned for reciprocity with RVP50. I am aware of a shift to green after approximately 30 minutes and many photographers exploits this in the landscape context to provide for an ethereal, alien-like landscape which works very well for e.g. seaside compositions or for the Aurora Australis (*Borealis to the US folks!) in which case RVP is allowed free-rein to exaggerate the colouring. Most of my exposures are about 1 sec up to around 45 seconds if I am concerned to avoid any casting.

My recommendation is that people try each of the Velvia's for say a couple of months each and lay them out on the lightbox to critically assess palettes and their handling of spectrals and shadows (I would say 100F and 50 do this better than 100, but that's my experience and eye talking to me). YMMV.

Trail Images said:
+1

I've tried V-100, V-100f, Provia, Astia, and even with favorable reciprocity they provide, they do not provide the V-50 look.

Too bad even with the petition signing it was not to be saved. Although, we were lead to believe it was lost forever, but we soon found out it was still being sold in Japan.....:confused:
If it's still produced why not do a annual special run for us willing to purchase in bulk.........at the normal price of course....whatever that might be these days.

It's actually cheaper to just buy one to five boxes directly from a Japanese seller, I have spoken to a few and the shipping prices make sense up to five boxes before it becomes more expensive.

The problem is that's stupid jerk photographer who bought the entire last shipment of 8x10 Velvia50 before anyone even knew that it was going out as a film to be made...

I don't even know what he did with it, it looks like he shoot digital now... Wonder where the boxes are...

Even though you can still get Velvia50 in 4x5 from Japan you cannot get 8x10, and the way that they run their company it seems that there isn't really "room" for any kind of negotiating or offering them a bulk purchase, it's hard enough to even get information for the reps, let alone actually talking to somebody at the company and striking a deal for a bulk purchase. And I suspect since one photographer bought the entire last production run of 8x10, I assume he also made them sign some kind of contract which wouldn't allow them to then start producing more all over again because he wanted to be the only one to have access to it to give him an edge over others...

I don't know, but I can only afford 1-2 boxes at a time...

mnemosyne · Dec 1, 2014

back to the original question:
I would not shoot Velvia 50 in your situation unless you know it well and are confident in using it. While the light is generally beautiful here (Kobe, 50 min train ride from Kyoto) at the moment, even around noon, I have been fighting with quickly changing lighting conditions almost every day for the last two weeks and additionally also strong winds for the last couple of days, which made even working from a tripod difficult. Expect exposures in the open to be around EV13~14 in full midday sun and around EV9~10 in overcast conditions. Lighting will be restriced by surrounding trees and or builidings in a lot of the smaller temples. Sun rises at 7 and light starts to fade after 4 pm, so it's good to get up early. My suggestions would be to use a higher speed, somewhat more flexible and forgiving material (negative). Also, if you plan to shoot inside of temples/gardens be prepared that while photographing is generally allowed (with some exceptions to this rule), there are usually restrictions when it comes to using tripods. But the typical temples/gardens of Kyoto are so small and often packed with people, which would make setting up a tripod a major challenge anyhow. So if you really want to shoot inside these tourist attractions bring a camera and film that is flexbile and can be pracitcally used hand-held. Also, Japan is a paradise for photographing at night with available light. Pack in some higher speed film and a suitable camera and do some casual late evening strolls through the Gion/Pontocho area or wherever you happen to be. There are so many beautiful details to see/discover (smell!) at night which are just not there in daylight. Portra 800 works very well for me in these situations. That is when Japan ist most beautiful, IMHO.

I also have a suggestion for a nice "off the beaten track" walk in Kyoto, but it's off topic here and I will send it via PM later.

RattyMouse · Dec 1, 2014

mooseontheloose said:
Yeah, I just checked. Still available in all formats (except 220) up to 8x10, 50 and 100 versions. So is Provia (100 and 400x), although only the 100 version is available in 220, 4x5, and 8x10.

Ratty -- I'm sure while you are here you'll head over to Yodobashi Camera, although I have to say that the film selection has gone down significantly since I moved here in March. It's about half of what it was. However, you will be able to pick up most films in most sizes. It's also worth checking their website if you want to stock up - delivery tends to be next day.

I was thinking about this. Right now is peak season in Kyoto. While most people shoot digital, I'm sure that film photographers are out there blasting away as well. Is there a chance I can't get film in Kyoto now? I am bringing with me 15 rolls of Acros to get me started. I was going to buy all my other film there. I could bring 400 speed film no problem on the plane. I just prefer it not to be scanned two times, even though I have done this many many times without a problem.

I'd like to buy some 400H, TMAX400, Delta 3200, and maybe some XP2, all 120 size. I'm not sure about the Velvia yet. That's just a side goal anyway. It was never going to be my primary film.

Any chance these might be out of stock? I really don't want to deal with special ordering film. That's too much time traveling to Yodobashi. My hotel is near Gion.

Thanks!

mooseontheloose · Dec 1, 2014

Ratty,

I was just there on the weekend but if I have time I'll check again after work. I don't think the issue is so much that they have run out of stock, it's just that they are reducing stock.

Here's what it looked like in April:

To be fair, most of what's gone is from the bottom two rows (mostly larger sheet film). Anyway, like I said, I'll try to check after work.

RattyMouse · Dec 1, 2014

mooseontheloose said:
Ratty,

I was just there on the weekend but if I have time I'll check again after work. I don't think the issue is so much that they have run out of stock, it's just that they are reducing stock.

Here's what it looked like in April:

View attachment 98957

To be fair, most of what's gone is from the bottom two rows (mostly larger sheet film). Anyway, like I said, I'll try to check after work.

Thank you! It looks pretty bare in the 400H department so that's a concern for me. I really want to shoot 15-20 rolls of that film. I could go get my own stock and bring it to Japan, but that would necessitate a trip across town and take 2-3 hours. I'd rather get my own there if possible. Maybe I'll bring more Astia than I originally planned, just in case I can't get the 400H that I want.

Velvia, Does it make sense for me??

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