Velvia archive longevity before fading?

tomfrh · Jul 2, 2015

MattKing said:
I expect that you misread the most important word in my post - "qualities".

Note that I used the plural, not the singular.

The immersive experience of a well projected slide. The near three dimensional feel, the colour , the sense of presence.

It is like seeing a movie projected in a full size movie theatre, vs. watching it on your phone.

It is great that you can also obtain quite serviceable prints and web postings by scanning your slides. But they won't replace the additional benefits of optical projection.

Yes I agree, and this is why I want to preserve my slides!

I find that projected slides have a magic that simply isn't there in prints or digital.

peter k. · Jul 2, 2015

MattKing said:
The immersive experience of a well projected slide. The near three dimensional feel, the colour , the sense of presence.

It is like seeing a movie projected in a full size movie theatre, vs. watching it on your phone.

It is great that you can also obtain quite serviceable prints and web postings by scanning your slides. But they won't replace the additional benefits of optical projection.

+2 as in oh yes...

trondsi · Jul 2, 2015

I read somewhere that there was a study of this. Kodachrome was very archival if not projected often, while old E6 would fade but could tolerate projection a bit better. I also think there have been huge improvements in E6 over time, including in the ability to preserve color. So your father's slides might not be representative of what will happen to yours. Velvia is likely more archival than older E6 slides, maybe even as good as Kodachrome in storage.

DREW WILEY · Jul 2, 2015

The entire topic is complex due to not only the many many different color products that have been made over the decades, but the almost
endless combinations of variables potentially affecting them. But as a generality, one could state that, at one extreme, films made for movie projection would mandate dyes capable of withstanding very high amounts of light very briefly, while at the other extreme, a color print on a wall would want to resist moderate amounts of light over a relatively long duration. With film, storage conditions vary widely, so how long a film lasts has a lot to do with that. For quite awhile color negative had a reputation of only lasting a few years at best. But I had no problem printing old Verichrome film twenty years old. That tells me that a lot of that kind of film was either being stored improperly or was not correctly processed to begin with. Chromes had a better reputation all along. But projecting slides does involve a lot of heat and light, so slide duplication was also available for people who did professional slide slows, though dupes never had quite the quality of original shots. As far as Aunt Maude was concerned, the sooner her slides faded the better, while you sat for five hours watching slides of
her vacation to Peoria.

Xmas · Jul 2, 2015

RobC said:
Freeze them

Do you freeze carrots?

Xmas · Jul 2, 2015

peter k. said:
+2 as in oh yes...

I had girls who hid in loo after first carousel magazine of their wedding.

tomfrh · Jul 2, 2015

Xmas said:
I had girls who hid in loo after first carousel magazine of their wedding.

Multiple carousels for a single wedding? Good lord!

DREW WILEY · Jul 2, 2015

There is a technique to correctly freezing exposed film or you risk ruining it. I have a big roll of heat-sealable aluminum-foil/polyethylene ply specially made for this purpose, though I used it for something else entirely, and have never frozen either chromes or prints. Nowadays you could buy a simple kitchen freeze-drying bagger with air evac plus a heat seal bar. But you'd want more than one layer, and would need to do it in a humidity controlled space. What I did do was sometimes frame large prints for display in humid climates, and learned to hermetically seal them. It was expensive and a pain to do, but successful. I had a large dessication chamber and special gear. Short story:
find some other way of preserving you treasured negs and chromes and use freezing only as a last resort, and if so, do your homework really well first.

tomfrh · Jul 2, 2015

Thanks for the info! It sounds pretty complex and clearly I need to do more homework.

Are there any really bad ways to store them? E.g. in plain cardboard boxes, in trays, etc? Up high, down low?

DREW WILEY · Jul 2, 2015

There is a lot of information already out there, both in print and on the web, for the sake of museum archives etc, as well as special suppliers concerning photographic preservation. Best advice: find a cool dry spot with good air circulation and keep individual slides reasonably apart,
not suffocated in plastic pouches. Archival paper envelopes work better, along with appropriate boxes.

Paul Verizzo · Jul 3, 2015

DREW WILEY said:
There is a technique to correctly freezing exposed film or you risk ruining it. I have a big roll of heat-sealable aluminum-foil/polyethylene ply specially made for this purpose, though I used it for something else entirely, and have never frozen either chromes or prints. Nowadays you could buy a simple kitchen freeze-drying bagger with air evac plus a heat seal bar. But you'd want more than one layer, and would need to do it in a humidity controlled space. What I did do was sometimes frame large prints for display in humid climates, and learned to hermetically seal them. It was expensive and a pain to do, but successful. I had a large dessication chamber and special gear. Short story:
find some other way of preserving you treasured negs and chromes and use freezing only as a last resort, and if so, do your homework really well first.

These processes are what you chose to do. That doesn't mean any of them are necessary.

I would trust just throwing some slides/negs/prints into the freezer willy-nilly as being preferential to sitting at higher temperature and humidity.

Unless someone can point me to research that says otherwise, I presume that dye degradation stops at 32F or 0C and below. At least for all practical purposes?

wiltw · Jul 3, 2015

tomfrh said:
Thanks for the info! It sounds pretty complex and clearly I need to do more homework.

Are there any really bad ways to store them? E.g. in plain cardboard boxes, in trays, etc? Up high, down low?

Store in a cool, dry place is the first commandment
Do NOT store within acidic environments is a second commandment (plain cardboard is as bad as acidic paper sleeves).
Do NOT store any photographic medium in PolyVinyl Chloride containers/sleeves is the third commandment.
Wood tends to not make good containers for things with photographic dyes.

1kgcoffee · Apr 27, 2019

wiltw said:
Store in a cool, dry place is the first commandment
Do NOT store within acidic environments is a second commandment (plain cardboard is as bad as acidic paper sleeves).
Do NOT store any photographic medium in PolyVinyl Chloride containers/sleeves is the third commandment.
Wood tends to not make good containers for things with photographic dyes.

Why not pvc?

Is my frozen film safe inin tupperware containers?

pentaxuser · Apr 27, 2019

1kgcoffee said:
Why not pvc?

Is my frozen film safe inin tupperware containers?

A good question. Like you I store film in a tupperware type box i.e. the kind you put sandwiches in or previously contained ice-cream and it is kept in the fridge. Maybe such boxes are not pvc?

pentaxuser

removed account4 · Apr 27, 2019

DREW WILEY said:
Nope. It's now officially a dinosaur.

I believe there are 2 people in Australia who are able to somehow develop Kodachrome Film.

DREW WILEY said:
Nearly a hundred years ago there were slide shows using three aligned lantern projectors that were superior to anything today in terms of color purity and saturation.

Yes, tri chrome projections, and some were made with glass plates, like these >> https://artofscience.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/color-photos-from-1909-russia/
It is not hard to do the same exact thing today using Panchromatic Black and White film, RGB filters and 3 projectors. There are people who make photographs ( Trichromes ) today and if you aren't a "stickler" it is possible to scan the RGB negatives and stack them in an image file in a computer and get beautiful color images that way too.

Paul Verizzo · Apr 27, 2019

Tupperware is polyethylene. Besides, your 35mm film is in canisters, so the question shouldn't even come up. And what are today's canisters made of? PE. I say today's because once upon a time they were metal.

I think the fear of PVC for film and negative storage is way overblown. I have slides and prints stored in PVC from the 1980's and before, before anyone heard the word "archival." And they are still just fine. Some of those slides, in fact, a lot, are movie film print material which was never designed to last long.

Freestyle just started carrying glassine neg/film sheets by Maco. VERY nice, if you don't mind them being a bit bigger than American letter size and hanging out of a typical binder. Unlike all the plastic sheets I've used, film just slides in and out easily. No sticking. And cheap. Transparent enough to see what's there.

wiltw · Apr 28, 2019

1kgcoffee said:
Why not pvc?

Is my frozen film safe inin tupperware containers?

PVC outgases fumes, I presume these are plasticizers that are put in to keep the plastic flexible rather than brittle, and these plasticizers attack organic dyes in film/prints. Photocopies stored in PVC sheet protectors will have the text on the page transfer to the plastic! Color dyes can fade.

pentaxuser · Apr 28, 2019

wiltw said:
PVC outgases fumes, I presume these are plasticizers that are put in to keep the plastic flexible rather than brittle, and these plasticizers attack organic dyes in film/prints. Photocopies stored in PVC sheet protectors will have the text on the page transfer to the plastic! Color dyes can fade.

So the crucial question is: What kind of storage containers that might appear to be suitable for film storage are still made that an unsuspecting person may innocently assume are OK for film storage? I'd have thought that most containers in today's world are not PVC. It very much seems like "yesterday's material. I was had a PVC motorcycle jacket which was very good, flexible and waterproof but not the sort of material that would be used for the kind of containers that could be used for film storage

Thanks

pentaxuser

awty · Apr 29, 2019

wiltw said:
PVC outgases fumes, I presume these are plasticizers that are put in to keep the plastic flexible rather than brittle, and these plasticizers attack organic dyes in film/prints. Photocopies stored in PVC sheet protectors will have the text on the page transfer to the plastic! Color dyes can fade.

Coupled with high temperature and humidity it is worse. If stored in dry, low temperature may be less of an issue. I had a large part of my modest record collection ruined from being stored in PVC sleeves.

AgX · Apr 29, 2019

wiltw said:
PVC outgases fumes, I presume these are plasticizers that are put in to keep the plastic flexible rather than brittle, and these plasticizers attack organic dyes in film/prints. Photocopies stored in PVC sheet protectors will have the text on the page transfer to the plastic! Color dyes can fade.

But you are overlooking that Acetate base itself containes plasticizers.
A great variety was advised for this use, partially even same plasticizers still used in PVC today.

DREW WILEY · Apr 29, 2019

Triacetate film base has very little noxious about it in comparison to PVC. I saw my own brother's life work of both 4x5 color transparencies and prints, including some lovely dye transfer work, ruined by vinyl sleeves. Fortunately, some of the best shots I recovered and put in acid-free paper sleeves (non-buffered), and then printed onto Cibachrome. Today most people know to use either polyethylene of mylar transparent sleeves and pages. I see no difference in the aging of E6 acetate versus Estar supported dyes. But I distinctly preferred polyester film base for its dimensional stability. Another question: freezing developed film? Not a good idea unless you know how to do it correctly via hermetic sealing, after vacuuming out all the air and the moisture that air contains. You need special materials that can be totally heat welded on all sides, and that are impermeable to moisture penetration for decades. I used a special heat-sealable laminate of aluminum and polyethylene for encapsulation, just like that designed for the Library of Congress. But for short-run storage, you can affordably (about $100) acquire sealable bags and a basic air-vac heat tacker marketed for do-it-yourself freeze-drying of snacks. For good measure, I would then add a second outer envelope.

Paul Verizzo · May 1, 2019

@drew, why is freezing developed film bad? I can't see a reason, willing to learn.

Paul Verizzo · May 1, 2019

It appears, both by my experience with 90 years of various family photos and negatives on all kinds of bases in all kinds of storage conditions, it's impossible to predict what will or won't happen. I mentioned the many slides, both chromes and never-intended-to-last-long movie print stock looking just fine after forty years in PVC.

I have several hours worth of 16mm film, acetate base, 1928-1948, all in perfect condition. After being stored in a garage in FL for 55 years! Two rolls of 8mm, no idea of age, one looks good, the other is totally destroyed.

Many hundreds of B&W negatives from my father are mostly just fine, ca. 1952-1959. Most were stored in kraft paper sleeves of the day. Who ever heard of archival? However, a few dozen degraded either partially or totally. In my research online, it appears that there have been a number of integrity failures by Kodak over the years with the same film base type. Some, like some movie filmstocks, started acetate degradation in a matter of years, that was back around 1950, IIRC. And then they got it right again.

My oldest Kodachromes are ca. 1938, 35mm. And a number of 4x5 KC's, all in perfect condition.

Per a previous comment, yes, PVC outgases, but do we really know if those gases affect the dyes of substrate integrity? My experiences say they don't, others have reported cataclysm. I will conject that old fashioned glassine is the way to go. Back to the future.

wiltw · May 1, 2019

Some excerpts from the Libray of Congress
Care, Handling, and Storage of Photographs
on storage in https://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/photolea.html

On storage ststems

"Storage furniture, including cabinets and shelves, should be made of non-combustible, non-corrosive materials such as stainless steel, anodized aluminum, or steel with a powder-coated finish. Shelves made of wood and wood by-products should generally be avoided since they contain lignin, peroxides, and oils that can offgas or migrate to photographic materials. New baked enamel shelving units may offgas harmful chemicals since the paint is very difficult to properly cure during manufacture."

On storage materials

"Many commercially available enclosures are labeled "archival" or "acid-free". However, some of these same items may contain lignin, dyes, sizing agents, coatings, plasticizers, or other harmful additives. Never use enclosures made from unprocessed woodpulp paper, glassine, or polyvinyl chloride (PVC) to house or store photographs. Avoid products made from colored papers because they often contain dyes or inks that are unstable and will migrate or bleed onto photographs or otherwise adversely affect the photographs stored within. For an enclosure material to be completely safe it must meet or exceed the specifications in the latest revision of ISO 18902 including the Photographic Activity Test (PAT) ISO 18916. Purchase enclosure materials from a reputable supplier."

On paper vs. plastic

"Plastic enclosures are preferred for frequently used collections because they protect photographs from fingerprints and provide physical support. Plastic enclosures should be made from plastics such as polyester, polyethylene, polypropylene, spun-bonded polyolefins, or polystyrene. These plastics are recommended by ISO standards because they are typically inert, unplasticized, and have good chemical stability. They may be used safely with many photographic materials in many situations. Since photographs can adhere to smooth surfaces at high humidites, use of plastic of any type should be avoided if prolonged storage at relative humidities above 80% is likely. Avoid all plastics that have fillers, coatings, or UV absorbers. Avoid the use of polyester, polyethylene, and polypropylene that has a hazy film on the surface, which indicates that the plastic film is coated or is heavily plasticized. Avoid using adhesives or fasteners that may cause chemical or physical damage, such as rubber cement, pressure-sensitive tape, paper clips, or rubber bands. When not stored in cold conditions, plastic enclosures of any kind should not be used with nitrate or early acetate films."

Paul Verizzo · May 1, 2019

My head spins with all the variable variables..............polyester, glassine. Call it done.

Velvia archive longevity before fading?

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