Valuing Collections for Insurance

thuggins · May 14, 2021

While getting a new homeowners policy, I ran across the issue of the value of my camera collection. Insurance is generally based on replacement value. This works fine for new items that you can go out and buy, but not for antiques or collectibles. The company did offer a "fixed value" option where you could state a specific value for collections and such. The cost of adding a $20K provision for the camera collection tripled the cost of the policy.

Has anyone else run into this issue? How do folks deal with insuring cameras? Has anyone had a loss that they dealt with thru an insurance policy?

BrianShaw · May 14, 2021

Get a documented appraisal from a respected independent appraiser who will provide both valuation and the basis for that valuation. Do not accept “estimate” or “personal knowledge “ or “professional judgment “ as the basis.

Replacement value works for antiques unless they are a one-of-a-kind... it’s just a lot lower valuation than most folks want to accept. Historical or sentimental value has no monetary value in that method of making a loss whole.

wiltw · May 14, 2021

You could consult McKeon's https://www.amazon.com/McKeowns-Antique-Classic-Cameras-2005-2006/dp/093183841X
A newer edition was published about 7 years ago. https://mckcamera.com/
Somone might have an old copy for sale at a more reasonable price

edit: found this https://www.ebay.com/itm/363390545534?hash=item549bc3ae7e:g:xQYAAOSwG~9giZ8u

BrianShaw · May 14, 2021

thuggins said:
How do folks deal with insuring cameras? Has anyone had a loss that they dealt with thru an insurance policy?

I self-insure. It’s a very affordable method. It seems like a deductible would make most camera loss claims, whether against homeowner/renter or collectible policy, not worthwhile.

MattKing · May 14, 2021

A "collection" implies a component of financial investment, with a hope of financial return.
That hope of return mandates insurance.

removed account4 · May 14, 2021

appraised value is typically an eBay sold page
good luck with your insurance forms!

cramej · May 14, 2021

I added a rider to my homeowner's (renter's at the time) policy when I had about $10k in digital equipment. I also listed the rest of my equipment on that for "replacement value" and the total was about $20k. It added $300/year to the policy which was fine since I used the digital equipment semi-professionally for weddings and such. After I sold the digital stuff, I dropped the rider because it wasn't worth it for the gear I had left.

You could focus on the gear that must be replaced in the event of a loss or the gear with the highest value. Also consider the deductible for a loss, the chances of a total loss of all the equipment at one time, etc. Is it worth paying $1000 deductible for a couple of bodies and lenses that fall off the car?

ChristopherCoy · May 14, 2021

I guess I'll worry about that when my collections value actually exceeds my deductible. Until then, it's all coming out of pocket anyway.

BrianShaw · May 14, 2021

MattKing said:
A "collection" implies a component of financial investment, with a hope of financial return.
That hope of return mandates insurance.

Collection is just a bunch of similar stuff. What you described is “investment “.

Dan Fromm · May 14, 2021

MattKing said:
A "collection" implies a component of financial investment, with a hope of financial return.
That hope of return mandates insurance.

Matt, you have some silly ideas.

Hmm. When I visited Haiti in '86, my camera bag was stolen. After I got home I claimed the loss on my homeowner's policy, using NYC dealers' prices for my equipment, used and in good order. The insurance company paid.

I never expected to make money on the gear and didn't view it as an investment but I was glad to get enough from the insurance company to replace it without much financial pain.

Tim, as you've described your "collection", it is entirely pedestrian run-of-the-mill photographic equipment, all used and by assumption in good order. eBay sold prices and KEH asking prices will do for estimating the cost of replacing it with comparable used equipment. Ask your insurance company whether you'll have provide an inventory, with values, for your homeowner's policy to cover it. If an inventory is necessary, update the values annually.

Craig75 · May 14, 2021

I had this 3 years ago. Insured my cameras separately on policy and 3 months later my house burned down so they had to pay up. That extra premium paid for itself immediately. While the house was empty my village flooded as well (so badly the army had to come in) so even if the house had not burned down it would have been flooded. My experience - pay the extra.

The only "complicated" camera I had was a 1960s chinese panoramic camera but I had sold that a couple of weeks before the fire so I escaped having to argue about that.

MattKing · May 14, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
Matt, you have some silly ideas.

Nah - just pointing out that insuring a "collection" is different than insuring your hobby cameras which you enjoy and use. A "collection" implies a value to "collectors" - values that are frequently much higher and considerably more difficult to establish than by checking eBay and KEH. The sort of cameras that a specialty auctioneer might be interested in.
Now if all the OP was asking about was a bunch of hobby cameras that the OP enjoys and uses, eBay and KEH and the various other used camera retailers would probably be more appropriate.
But if it were up to me, I would talk to an insurance broker and ask them for informed advice.

mshchem · May 14, 2021

Craig75 said:
I had this 3 years ago. Insured my cameras separately on policy and 3 months later my house burned down so they had to pay up. That extra premium paid for itself immediately. While the house was empty my village flooded as well (so badly the army had to come in) so even if the house had not burned down it would have been flooded. My experience - pay the extra.

The only "complicated" camera I had was a 1960s chinese panoramic camera but I had sold that a couple of weeks before the fire so I escaped having to argue about that.

This sounds like the scene from Monty Python Holy Grail.
In 2008 my home town had a flood of Biblical proportions. People climbing out of 2nd floor windows into rescue boats. I have flood insurance for flash flood/street flooding. I hope I never need it. Money well spent. PS we weren't effected by the flood. I know people who lost everything!

Craig75 · May 14, 2021

mshchem said:
This sounds like the scene from Monty Python Holy Grail.
In 2008 my home town had a flood of Biblical proportions. People climbing out of 2nd floor windows into rescue boats. I have flood insurance for flash flood/street flooding. I hope I never need it. Money well spent. PS we weren't effected by the flood. I know people who lost everything!

haha yes - friends were ripping on me about plagues of locusts next.

yeah floods are brutal - the power in them is crazy.

Craig75 · May 14, 2021

MattKing said:
Nah - just pointing out that insuring a "collection" is different than insuring your hobby cameras which you enjoy and use. A "collection" implies a value to "collectors" - values that are frequently much higher and considerably more difficult to establish than by checking eBay and KEH. The sort of cameras that a specialty auctioneer might be interested in.
Now if all the OP was asking about was a bunch of hobby cameras that the OP enjoys and uses, eBay and KEH and the various other used camera retailers would probably be more appropriate.
But if it were up to me, I would talk to an insurance broker and ask them for informed advice.

Yes this is correct. A collection is very different from an accumulation of stuff. This is very important to know.

Dan Fromm said: ↑
Matt, you have some silly ideas.

sorry Dan but please dont give out uninformed advice on insurance. From brutal experience thats not smart

Dan Fromm · May 14, 2021

Craig, I see that you're in the UK. I've been following pistonheads.com, which has numerous posts about problems with insurance of all sorts in the UK. UK insurers behave very differently from US ones and work under very different rules. I'm very aware that US rules and laws stop at the water's edge. The same is true of the UK. The OP is in Texas, which is still part of the US.

All that said, I reported my experience. I'm sorry that yours was brutal, in that you're much like many of the posters on pistonheads.

As for collections, in the original post Tim listed, very broadly, what he has. All pretty pedestrian. The late Charlie Barringer, co-author of The Zeiss Ikon Compendium and one of the founders of Zeiss Historica, was a friend and a neighbor. Charlie had a huge collection, most of which was pretty pedestrian. For example, a display case full of Contax IIs, each with a 50/1.5 Sonnar. He also had some very exotic items that brought astounding prices in Westlicht auctions. For example, his Barry Lyndon lens and Super Q Gigantar. I doubt that Tim has anything like that, congratulate him on good snags if I'm mistaken.

gone · May 15, 2021

I'm from the op's neck of the woods (actually much further down by the coast), and this is what I know about insurance companies after going through 8 or 10 major hurricanes. Don't waste your money on expensive insurance that the company has not one tiny bit of intention on paying a claim on. They will think of every reason known to man and beast to avoid paying anything out. That's how they make their money, by NOT paying on claims. I would simply "self insure" them by stashing aside enough money to replace them if necessary.

Craig75 · May 15, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
Craig, I see that you're in the UK. I've been following pistonheads.com, which has numerous posts about problems with insurance of all sorts in the UK. UK insurers behave very differently from US ones and work under very different rules. I'm very aware that US rules and laws stop at the water's edge. The same is true of the UK. The OP is in Texas, which is still part of the US.

All that said, I reported my experience. I'm sorry that yours was brutal, in that you're much like many of the posters on pistonheads.

As for collections, in the original post Tim listed, very broadly, what he has. All pretty pedestrian. The late Charlie Barringer, co-author of The Zeiss Ikon Compendium and one of the founders of Zeiss Historica, was a friend and a neighbor. Charlie had a huge collection, most of which was pretty pedestrian. For example, a display case full of Contax IIs, each with a 50/1.5 Sonnar. He also had some very exotic items that brought astounding prices in Westlicht auctions. For example, his Barry Lyndon lens and Super Q Gigantar. I doubt that Tim has anything like that, congratulate him on good snags if I'm mistaken.

They dont behave differently. A UK insurer will be out to f you. And a USA insurer will be out to f you. The terms, regulations, etc might be different but the principal is the same - you're only protection is your policy and if that isnt water tight, if you dont understand all the terms, and havent decalred everything exactly then you're in for a horror ride no matter whether youre in Mozambique or Montana. Even if you have done everything exactly... yr still in for a bad trip.

Losing a camera on holiday is not the same thing as a catastrophic event in your home.

How many people here see their home darkroom as an amateur affair? How many people have sold a few prints from their home darkroom? How many people have declared that darkroom as a business? Yeah I've had them try and cancel my whole policy AFTER they redid my house to a standard so bad it needs gutting and redoing again by them because my darkroom was an undeclared business. Thankfully humanity has more sense than to buy anything out of my darkroom so I got out of that trap but there will be a lot of people in the situation i just dscribed on the board.

Its not a joke dealing with insurers - the first thing they will think is that you burnt your own house down and that everything you are saying is an attempt to defraud them.

No you cannot judge what Tiim has from his signature

Olympus - All of them
Medium Format - Lots
Super Graphic
Baby Graphics - Went a bit overboard
Various Exaktas and Other Quirky Things

Those bits in bold could mean anything. There are plenty people on here with some very nice exotic gear and a lot of it but a lot of people are too modest to show the rest of us what they have.

ChristopherCoy · May 15, 2021

@thuggins Has no one mentioned PPA? Professional Photographers of America? A yearly membership is probably less than a deductible, and they offer insurance policies to cover your gear. Not sure if that extends to "vintage" film gear or not, but it may be worth looking into.

https://www.ppa.com/benefits/insurance/basic-equipment-insurance

RalphLambrecht · May 15, 2021

thuggins said:
While getting a new homeowners policy, I ran across the issue of the value of my camera collection. Insurance is generally based on replacement value. This works fine for new items that you can go out and buy, but not for antiques or collectibles. The company did offer a "fixed value" option where you could state a specific value for collections and such. The cost of adding a $20K provision for the camera collection tripled the cost of the policy.

Has anyone else run into this issue? How do folks deal with insuring cameras? Has anyone had a loss that they dealt with thru an insurance policy?

insurances do whatever is in their power not to pay out. In the average case, they make money as they are in business for.Therefore, in the average case, you are better off to treat and store your equipment sensibly and carry the risk yourself.

Dan Fromm · May 15, 2021

RalphLambrecht said:
insurances do whatever is in their power not to pay out.

This depends on the company. One of my friends who worked as a claims adjuster (Meridian, an Indiana company) insists that insurance companies lose money on underwriting (that's the funds they collect from policy holders) and make the losses up and then some by speculating in the stock market.

MattKing · May 15, 2021

Talk to your friends and acquaintances, particularly those who have made claims in the past, and ask them about their experience. And if you are a member of any group that has attached to it a group insurance benefit, make a point of talking to the other group members.
There are business reasons for insurers to pay claims promptly and fairly, just as there are business reasons for them to dispute claims. Disgruntled customers make it more difficult for them to sell insurance - particularly if there is a chance that a disgruntled customer can sway multiple members of a group.
If you aren't buying as part of a group, I recommend dealing with a broker - preferably one who has available insurance products from a number of competing companies. The brokers have a much higher duty to you, the insured, then an employee of an insurance owned agency. Brokers also often assist insureds with their claims, so they have a good idea who is better to deal with.
And it is important to understand that the law puts the onus on the insured to be completely accurate and honest about the details of the risk they seek insurance on. Get that wrong, even inadvertently, and an insurer is entitled to deny the claim.
And whatever you do, make sure you have a detailed inventory of what you are insuring, and keep at least one copy of that inventory in a second, secure place. Photos good enough to reveal details, condition and serial numbers are great, as are copies of related documentation like purchase and repair receipts.

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