Valuate test strips or work prints wet or dry?

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

Hi there,

Reading Master Printing Course book by Tim Rudman, he said:

Whether exposing for test strips or work prints, alway base exposure calculations on dry prints. This because prints, especially on fibre-base paper, darken as they dry.

It means that i need to wait the paper to be dry. But if I consider it when is wet, is it a problem? I used the paper to be wet, before.

MattKing · Jun 6, 2020

This is why a hair dryer is a useful accessory for every darkroom.
Prints look really different when wet.
After doing this for a while, you will probably get to the point where you can look at a wet print and then "mentally" envision how it will look when it has been dried, but that won't come for a while.

Paul Howell · Jun 6, 2020

I use a microwave to dry FB test strips and patches,

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

MattKing said:
This is why a hair dryer is a useful accessory for every darkroom.
Prints look really different when wet.
After doing this for a while, you will probably get to the point where you can look at a wet print and then "mentally" envision how it will look when it has been dried, but that won't come for a while.

But later he adds:

If you must work from a wet print for purposes of exposure calculation, reduce exposure by about 10 percent to allow for dry down. Note, however, that this figure varies from paper to paper.

This is useful, but of course I'm going to use the hair dryer to be more accurate.

Thank you, appreciated that.

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

Paul Howell said:
I use a microwave to dry FB test strips and patches,

is it works fine? I have it? is it dangerous, because the paper releases chemistry? Should I wash for 30 minutes before?
I'm asking that, because the microwave is used for aliments.

Paul Howell · Jun 6, 2020

Well the paper is washed, I dont it any more dangerous than microwaving popcorn.

MattKing · Jun 6, 2020

For test strips on FB paper, which have only been rinsed (not really washed), I wouldn't recommend using a microwave that is also used to prepare food.
Boiled bits of fixer residue are probably not the best choice for seasoning your lunch.

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

MattKing said:
For test strips on FB paper, which have only been rinsed (not really washed), I wouldn't recommend using a microwave that is also used to prepare food.
Boiled bits of fixer residue are probably not the best choice for seasoning your lunch.

For this reason I was worried.

Vaughn · Jun 6, 2020

I generally used the 10% reduction in time when silver printing. Dry-down is even more extreme with many alt. processes. One can learn (from experience, esp if using the same material) to look at the wet print and judge what the print will look like dry. Tear a fresh wet print in half and dry one half -- if it dries down perfectly, look at the wet half to learn what to look for.

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

Vaughn said:
I generally used the 10% reduction in time when silver printing. Dry-down is even more extreme with many alt. processes. One can learn (from experience, esp if using the same material) to look at the wet print and judge what the print will look like dry. Tear a fresh wet print in half and dry one half -- if it dries down perfectly, look at the wet half to learn what to look for.

Really valuable intervention, thank you.

A question, does dry down effects as well the contrast?
I think no because the relationship between tones remain the same, isn’t it?

Doremus Scudder · Jun 6, 2020

InExperience,

I mentioned in another response to one of your threads that I spent more time evaluating and planning than actually printing. Part of that time is waiting for the prints to dry...

However, test strips can be evaluated wet. Almost 100% of the time, the first print you make on a full sheet of paper will not be a final product, just the first step of several on the way to the artistic end. When you are getting close to the final print is when you need to let the print dry (somehow) and see exactly what the dry version is like.

On the way to the final product, however, you can work wet, keeping in mind that the tonalities, especially the highlights, in the print will change when the print is dry. Drydown is caused mostly by dimensional changes in the paper and emulsion between the wet and dry states. Both the paper and the emulsion expand when wet and shrink when dry.

A good exercise is to compare two identical prints, one wet, one dry, to get a feeling for how the drydown changes look.

Keep in mind that the type and intensity of lighting you use for evaluation will make a huge difference.

Also bear in mind if you plan to tone your prints, that the tonalities will change yet again. I always leave a bit of "room," in the shadows especially, for the toning.

To summarize:

Print wet up to the point where you are getting close to the final product, then dry the last few prints for final evaluation. Leave some "room" for drydown on the first print you plan to dry by exposing slightly less. From there, make your final exposure and manipulation adjustments and dry every print on the way to your final product.

Evaluate prints in lighting that you find ideal for display. Too bright and you'll print too dark and vice-versa.

If you plan on toning, be aware that many papers gain contrast and density when toned. Make allowance for this as well.

FWIW, I dry my prints by hanging them on clips from a magnetic white board, which leaves a space behind them for airflow. There is a small heater below my white board that heats my darkroom and drys the prints hanging above it rather quickly. Using a hair dryer works, but curls the prints a lot if you're using fiber-base paper. A darkroom microwave is good for drying test strips, but I'd never dry an exhibition print in a microwave... It can affect the finish.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Pieter12 · Jun 6, 2020

I may be wrong, but it seems to me the dry-down effect on prints is caused by the fact that a wet surface reflects light differently than a dry one, so dry-down is more dramatic on matte finish paper than glossy. Or is there something else happening here?

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

Thank you @Doremus Scudder for your impressive and clear explanation.

ic-racer · Jun 6, 2020

In my darkroom perfect prints usually look too dark in the Dektol under the safelight and too light in the print washer under white light. I used to use a microwave to dry test strips but it broke so I cleaned up an old print dryer and use that now.

Bill Burk · Jun 6, 2020

The dry down effect occurs on glossy surface too.

I evaluate test strips when wet but "keep in mind" that I want to make a print that looks a bit "hot" - where the highlights are barely or almost lost (when wet). Then when dry down happens it brings me where I want.... slight touch of image in the highlights.

I am somewhat more accepting of faults in prints that more sensitive printers would never tolerate. So I would listen to the masters who say... evaluate dry. Ansel Adams certainly has his story of an edition that dried down too dark and he had to throw out a pile of final prints.

pentaxuser · Jun 6, 2020

If you print on RC paper as opposed to FB then the dry-down will be a lot less and may even be so insignificant as to not matter but try it out the same way anyway to see the outcome

pentaxuser

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

I use only FB paper.
Thank you @Bill Burk, @pentaxuser, @ic-racer

pentaxuser · Jun 6, 2020

InExperience said:
I use only FB paper.
Thank you @Bill Burk, @pentaxuser, @ic-racer

For what it is worth Les McLean who incorporated a dry-down section in his book "Creative Black and White Photography" (another worthwhile book to obtain) said that in his long experience the dry down meant that his correct exposures worked out at between 8 -12% less to get the highlights right.

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jun 6, 2020

All of the comments above about dry down are excellent.
I might suggest, however, that if you are new to all this that there are other things that will affect the appearance of your print that argue for drying your test strips before evaluating them.
The surface sheen of a wet print is different, and that may confuse your evaluation of it. In addition, blacks always look more impressive in a wet print.
Until you are familiar with it, best dry before evaluating.

Bob Carnie · Jun 6, 2020

From my experience as a printer for others, I do not have the luxury of waiting for prints to dry, I learned how to evaluate prints when wet and take in consideration drydown, and yes certain papers do dry down differently even in the alt world.

What I did to for my clients and what I do for myself is make three prints normal , a bit lighter and a bit different again (maybe change contrast slighter) over years of doing this I was able to have a nice
selection for my client or for that matter my personal taste.....

Experience over a few thousand prints will get you there..... What if the person new to printing only makes one print.. they may for their whole life make Light Prints, I prefer to have a range of prints

InExperience · Jun 6, 2020

My Master never mentioned the effect of dry down. They used directly wet paper for all the processes. What can I say? Now reading the book and searching on internet I noticed that.

Thank you men.

Maris · Jun 6, 2020

I use a dim viewing light, 20W tungsten at 1.5 metres, to evaluate wet fibre base test strips. The wet strip that looks right in the semi-dark will eventually dry down to look right in ordinary bright room light. I'm too impatient for hair dryers or microwaves to do their slow and steady work.

koraks · Jun 7, 2020

Pieter12 said:
I may be wrong, but it seems to me the dry-down effect on prints is caused by the fact that a wet surface reflects light differently than a dry one, so dry-down is more dramatic on matte finish paper than glossy. Or is there something else happening here?

No, it's not just reflectance. During drying, silver grains tend to clump together due to the emulsion losing volume. There may also be a bit of migration of silver particles to the surface of the medium. This influences density as well as image tone.

I have never found evaluation of wet strips/prints to be accurate enough for my printing. This is likely due to my use of several papers next to each other. Each paper responds differently to drying. If one uses only one or two papers and knows the effects really well, it becomes possible to accurately predict the effect. I'm not in that fortunate position.

I second the suggestion of using a hairdryer to dry test strips. No washing or even extensive fixing is required (obviously at least a brief fix is necessary), if the strips are to be evaluated immediately. A hairdryer on high heat and airflow dries a strip within 30-60 seconds, which I'm willing to wait for.

InExperience · Jun 7, 2020

koraks said:
No, it's not just reflectance. During drying, silver grains tend to clump together due to the emulsion losing volume. There may also be a bit of migration of silver particles to the surface of the medium. This influences density as well as image tone.

I have never found evaluation of wet strips/prints to be accurate enough for my printing. This is likely due to my use of several papers next to each other. Each paper responds differently to drying. If one uses only one or two papers and knows the effects really well, it becomes possible to accurately predict the effect. I'm not in that fortunate position.

I second the suggestion of using a hairdryer to dry test strips. No washing or even extensive fixing is required (obviously at least a brief fix is necessary), if the strips are to be evaluated immediately. A hairdryer on high heat and airflow dries a strip within 30-60 seconds, which I'm willing to wait for.

Thank you for your speech. I will change then my approach next session in darkroom. It's hard to alter usual methodology or what my teacher taught me, but it's necessary if I want to improve my prints. I have to learn technique like split contrast and flashing, taken note of their existence only recently, frequenting this wonderful forum. I don't know if is necessary a Master for these latter, but I'm confident reading a clear procedure, it's easy as stand beside a Master; I hope this works.

Vaughn · Jun 7, 2020

Pieter12 said:
I may be wrong, but it seems to me the dry-down effect on prints is caused by the fact that a wet surface reflects light differently than a dry one, so dry-down is more dramatic on matte finish paper than glossy. Or is there something else happening here?

Paper shrinkage is the main culprit. If you imagine one's brightest highlights, there are just a few silver grains creating what little tonality is there. Dry the paper, and as it shrinks, thosesilver grains become a little closer to each other -- creating a slightly darker tone. There is so much silver in mid-tones and blacks, that the slight shrinkage does not significantly increase how dark they are.

With watercolor papers used by alt processes (platinum for example), the paper shrinks a lot more and one can also lose shadow detail.

Edited to add - I forgot about the emulsion shrinkage...though of course dry-down with platinum prints is purely paper shrinkage as there is no emulsion.

Valuate test strips or work prints wet or dry?

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