V600 and B&W Negatives

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Kitch

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i have the Viewer set in Prefs to F:/My Scans which is a folder for these scans in CNX2. What I found a bit odd is if I have it set for two passes the negatives show very good but after the final pass it shows up washed out. I can fix that in NX2 it just seemed it should stay the same. Thanks for the tips, BTW.

Here's a couple of color and B&W's of the World's Fair I did today.

WorldsFair0007 by David Fincher, on Flickr
WorldsFair0009 by David Fincher, on Flickr
WorldsFair0003 by David Fincher, on Flickr
WorldsFair0004 by David Fincher, on Flickr
 

OzJohn

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I am having zero luck at trying to scan some B&W 35mm negatives with the V600. I first tried the software than came with the scanner and they all look two stops too dark. Then I tried VueScan and little luck there. At first it started looking good as I watched them develop during the scan process but after it made the two passes and went into Calibrate and the final scan, they all looked nearly black.

What am I missing here? I thought for sure VueScan would yield the best results but you get a false sense of security watching the scan and then the entire strip of negatives go nearly black with little detail. There is no choice for selecting Tri-X, just the closest which was TMAX so, that's what I selected and set the B/W Type to .40 as anything greater produced a darker look.

I've followed his thread since it started to see if three predictable responses will appear and they have. These are that Lenny will tell you to get a bigger format camera and don't use a flatbed scanner, Ralph will say to just get a digital camera and forget film while a few guys, eg pschwart, will try to help you with your actual problem - that being to make good scans from negatives that you already have using the equipment you already own.

I don't have much to offer you that is extra to what has already been given other than to say that I have scanned thousands of negatives on various types of scanners, including Epson flatbeds, in the past 13 years or so. Sure, flatbeds are challenged by 35mm but if done carefully, the results are acceptable within the standards and expectations of most people. Purists will of course disagree but in my mind the scan is but an intermediate and it needs to be judged only against the end product be that a print, projection or mechanical reproduction.

The Epson Scan software has always been my choice with the flatbeds and there would not be a single scan I've made over the years, whether from film or hard copy, that has not been improved by an encounter with Photoshop. I have always preferred scans that are a little on the flat side and invariably scan B&W as RGB colour. I never allow a scanner to use auto exposure and do not do any curves/levels in the scanner software.

Today I scan very little having digitized my film archive some years ago. I almost never shoot film and will not replace any of my scanners when and if they become unservicable. I've yet to look at a scan I made years ago and feel the need to go back and redo it using the better scanners I now have. Good luck with you scanning - you will eventually sort out the bugs. OzJohn
 
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Kitch

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It's been a challenge for sure. Up until about five or so years ago digital photography was beyond my realm of desire. I had been making prints from B&W negatives and some Cibachrome from transparencies since 1977 and was totally satisfied with the outcome of both.

Times change and we're forced into areas we may not want to venture for various reasons. I knew the only way I was going to be able to archive my many negatives and slides was the scanner. I'd love to have a dedicated 35mm scanner as 80% of my negatives are 35mm but don't know if they'd in the long run provide better scans than the V600 I was turned onto. I think the software and the quality of the originals play the biggest part in the final quality.

There are many I simply want to put on Flickr in albums while there's others I just want to archive and make some prints here and there. when it comes to the latter you want the best possible scan or you'll end up sending the negative to someone to print if not happy about the scan. If I had my darkroom back up and operating and film/chemistry/paper was as plentiful and could be gotten nearly anywhere locally as it once was I'd go back to it in a minute. That's not the case anymore but, I sorely miss my darkroom. There may come some point in time I'll get close to that quality with scanning but that's a long way off from what I've seen so far.
 
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Kitch

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My one regret in photography is that I couldn't afford the latest Nikon back in the later part of the 60's when I was in Germany. Being an SP-4 they cost a months salary. Best I recall the first Nikon I ever saw was at the Frankfurt PX. It was an FTN Photomic and I use to lust after one. There were so many beautiful sights where I was privileged to go and only had an Instamatic with the cube flashbulbs:smile:. You could develop your own film in the PX in Hanau where I was stationed for a year and a half but I knew nothing about dark room work but just watched as many would spend time there developing their Tri-X.
 
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Kitch

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I ran across an old photo that was in dire need of some restoration and decided to give it a try. I used the Restore Colors/Fading tab in VueScan and did a little tweaking in my PP softwwre and it came out looking much better than I would have thought. I wish I had done a before and after as they're light years different. The colors were all but nearly gone but VueScan brought them back.

This was me in April 1967 when I had come home from leave and my Mom took this picture with an InstaMatic.

Me0001 by David Fincher, on Flickr
 

Alan Klein

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I was lucky in that I was stationed in Japan in the mid 1960's in USAF when I bought a Nikon F Photomic T with 50mm. It was $189.00 equivalent (about a months pay) over there at the time when it was selling for almost $500.00 in the states. I also got a 135mm lens. Unfortunately I lost them all a few years later in the NYC Subway!!!
 
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Kitch

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Unfortunately I lost them all a few years later in the NYC Subway!!!

What a bummer! It would have taken a long time to have gotten over that.
 
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Kitch

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No subways to deal with in my neck of the woods, thankfully.
 
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As someone said above,Ialso came to the conclusionthat mixing analog and digital is a mess.If you go digital do it all the way or not at all.I went for a good digital camera (Nikon D800)and replaced the darkroom wth an Epson 3880 printer.Now I can make high-quality prints rivaling the once I made in the darkroom.scanning negatives just won't get me there;it really is dinosaur digital:smile:
 

StoneNYC

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As someone said above,Ialso came to the conclusionthat mixing analog and digital is a mess.If you go digital do it all the way or not at all.I went for a good digital camera (Nikon D800)and replaced the darkroom wth an Epson 3880 printer.Now I can make high-quality prints rivaling the once I made in the darkroom.scanning negatives just won't get me there;it really is dinosaur digital:smile:

Oh Ralph... Haha

It's sort of true, but it's just different, there's an art in both, digital is certainly easier for certain things.

Both have their places :wink:
 
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Kitch

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No digital conversion to B&W will ever rival taking a negative, be it FP4 or Tri-X, developing in ID-11 or HC-110 and enlarging them on a goode ol' Besler 23CII. Develop that result using Kodak's PC paper or Oriental Seagul, maybe Agfa Brovira in the tray of Dektol and there's no comparison.

I like digital but as StoneNYC said well, both have their places. Digital B&W is not going to get it.
 
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Oh Ralph... Haha

It's sort of true, but it's just different, there's an art in both, digital is certainly easier for certain things.

Both have their places :wink:
They do but the darkroom was easier for me or maybe,the learning curve was just more logical than computers:smile:They only seem to fix the problems they create:sad:
 

lenny

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Ralph, Kitch, Sorry guys but I am going to have to speak up and call this what it is: "bull". There is no reason to come up with a rule like "you have to go all the way, one or the other". It's just plain silly, and it isn't based on evidence. It belies the fact that you are messing about in the hybrid process and you don't know what you're doing. You are using mediocre materials, mediocre devices and you have mediocre technical ability, that's why you are getting mediocre results.

Every one of the materials mentioned is low-quality, from the minuscule, 35mm, which is ridiculous for this process, to FP4 and Tri-x, both not the best for this, to the developers used (yes, not the best for this), the scanner is a toy. When I suggested better materials, you told me to buzz off. You apparently just want what you want. You aren't getting the results you want, but you don't want any feedback.

Sorry, but I think you need to get to a top level of the medium before you can make conclusions about things, like you have to go all in, one way or the other, or it just doesn't work.

The Hybrid process actually works excellently. It may not be obvious, you may have to learn how to use a scanner, or how to manipulate scanner settings properly, but the results are excellent.

I scan with a pro-level drum scanner and I produce scans that are professional level. People send me film from all over the world to scan, and I make a little money to pay for the scanner. The scans make prints that are exquisite, whether in color or b&w. I use b&w inks in my b&w printer, my own mix of Cone inks, and I make prints that look like platinum prints. If you can match a platinum print, with all its detail, spread of tones in every zone, then you can make a print do anything. If you can't do this, then you have no right to try and define the medium.

If you like darkroom prints, by all means stay in the darkroom and enjoy yourself. They have their own beauty. I made lots of them in my time, some for people like Avedon. However, I prefer the surface of papers used for alt process or inkjet. In many ways I would prefer to work in the darkroom, but it can't produce the results I am after, mostly with surface quality of the paper. i don't want to see an emulsion, or any shine/gloss on my prints. That's a personal value... and not meant to be a rule for anyone else.

The hybrid process is very real. Film captures more info than digital when it comes to tonality, at least, and the printing is at least as good, depending on what you are after in your print. For me its better. There is excellent work being done every day, excellent prints being made, all over the place. You can't tell me that William Clift doesn't know how to print, or Ken Lee, Sandy King. Jon Cone is pretty terrific, and so is his wife, Cathy, each in their own styles. There is Cramer, and Joe Holmes, Tillman Crane (who works in platinum from digital negs) and plenty of others. There are a lot of good printers, and plenty of great ones as well. People who can make prints with as much delicacy and atmosphere as with any other process.

If you can't get it to work for yourself, then you need to look to your materials and your techniques. There are a lot of people who do get it to work.... and work beautifully.
 

pschwart

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No digital conversion to B&W will ever rival taking a negative, be it FP4 or Tri-X, developing in ID-11 or HC-110 and enlarging them on a goode ol' Besler 23CII. Develop that result using Kodak's PC paper or Oriental Seagull, maybe Agfa Brovira in the tray of Dektol and there's no comparison.

This is demonstrably not so; you should seek out prints made by someone who has mastered the workflow. Monochrome inks and especially papers for inkjet printing have come a long way and in the right hands can rival, and even surpass, wet processing. Lenny's point about paper is right on -- there are far more papers and surfaces available for inkjet printing than enlarging, and this is a Big Deal, especially if one wants to move beyond an air-dried F surface. You might still want to print in the traditional darkroom for a number of reasons, but image quality shouldn't be one of them.

I am assuming by "digital conversion" you mean inkjet printing. If you think inkjets are too much of a compromise, you can always use a hybrid workflow for alt process prints. :smile:
 

marton

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You buy a consumer-level scanner which is known to be blurry, you use 35mm film, which is not recommended for use on those scanners, and then you complain that its not sharp. In the last thread, you complained that the colors weren't right. Color shifts are easily handled in PhotoShop....

No consumer-level scanner produces a sharp image. All the people who get these to work, and there are many, have a good understanding of sharpening tools and sharpening techniques.

You appear to want what you want. Why would you use Tri-X as a film for scanning? It may be useful as a test, or to convert old film already shot to digital. However, the results you can achieve will be limited. You need more the densely packed grains, that a TMax or Delta can give you (among others).

If you want a good result, you need to use the tools that will get you there. I would start by shooting medium format, at least. You can buy a decent med format camera for very little... Get a used tripod... You will be amazed at what that change will get you....

Best of luck...

Hello all, for my first post here, I would like post by saying that I agree with Lenny here. Having spent some time in the dark room and enlarging 35mm B&W negs, then acquiring a medium format outfit, the results in terms of difference were pronounced, and I'm trying to understate here. As I'm just a Uni student and studying photography a colour enlarger and associated equipment is out of the question and so I bought a V700 and scanned MF colour negs in the hope of using a hybrid workflow, but no matter how I persevered, the results while good enough for the web, were not good enough for anything else. I used Silverfast, upgraded to the pro version in the hope of achieving good results but was disappointed. I finally sold the scanner until such time I can afford a Flextight. Hybrid workflows demand quality hardware. There is no way around it.
 

lenny

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I finally sold the scanner until such time I can afford a Flextight.

Marton, welcome to the forum, or to your first post... Flextight's are pretty good, but if you can afford one of those, you might be able to afford a Howtek 4500 as well. They are going for about $1500 these days. You may or may not need extra for drums, mounting stations, etc. All things being equal (the price) I'd go for the drum... Best of luck....
 

marton

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Marton, welcome to the forum, or to your first post... Flextight's are pretty good, but if you can afford one of those, you might be able to afford a Howtek 4500 as well. They are going for about $1500 these days. You may or may not need extra for drums, mounting stations, etc. All things being equal (the price) I'd go for the drum... Best of luck....

Thanks for the welcome. I want to avoid complications as far as is possible where scanners are concerned, and having said that, drum scanners demand wet mounting. Or am I wrong about that?
 

lenny

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Thanks for the welcome. I want to avoid complications as far as is possible where scanners are concerned, and having said that, drum scanners demand wet mounting. Or am I wrong about that?

There is no such thing as photography without complications. Developing film alone has tons of them... little things like most thermometers being totally inaccurate. If I was to use a consumer level scanner, or a film scanner, I would wet mount. There are numerous advantages. It can fill in scratches, it can make some dust transparent, and it enhances everything on the film. I can't imagine scanning without mounting fluid...

There are all sorts of people who will tell you how hard it is, but its a piece of cake. It's true that its faster to use an Imacon, if only because one doesn't wt mount... but it isn't better. It's still using a digital sensor vs a PMT and its still going thru another lens. There are plenty of drum scanners down under - go try one out... and see for yourself.
 

marton

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There is no such thing as photography without complications. Developing film alone has tons of them... little things like most thermometers being totally inaccurate. If I was to use a consumer level scanner, or a film scanner, I would wet mount. There are numerous advantages. It can fill in scratches, it can make some dust transparent, and it enhances everything on the film. I can't imagine scanning without mounting fluid...

There are all sorts of people who will tell you how hard it is, but its a piece of cake. It's true that its faster to use an Imacon, if only because one doesn't wt mount... but it isn't better. It's still using a digital sensor vs a PMT and its still going thru another lens. There are plenty of drum scanners down under - go try one out... and see for yourself.

Let me re-phrase; I want to eliminate as many complications as is possible. The less time I spend scanning negatives, the better, hence my interest in Flextight. Of course, I may change my approach to include wet mounting at some point.

I'm well aware of what you're saying - I graduated with a Bachelor of Art in Photography in 2014, and I'm in my second semester of writing my Honors thesis, we studied all this stuff and I spent a lot of time in the darkroom developing black and white MF negs and exhibiting some of those. I know how much of a black art that side of photography is. You clearly know what you're talking about, what you're saying is accurate and I agree with you.
 
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