Using Rapid Fix for VDB, Kallitypes, Salt Prints

[donbga]

Just curious if anyone has tried using a rapid fixer for these types of silver nitrate based processes.

I realize that the rapid fix would need to be highly diluted and probably de-acified. It would be very convenient to be able to use a rapid fix for these processes.

Thanks,

Don Bryant

 

[Ole]

I have used very, very dilute rapid fix (TF-4) as a bleach for VDB, when the highlights were too muddy.

The fixer is a silver solvent, and rapid fix is too efficient for these processes. Sodium thiosulfate fixer is definitely the way to go.

 

[Lukas Werth]

It is certainly necessary to be careful, but I have been using rapid fix (amonium thio.) for salt prints and -allready toned! - kallitypes without fixing-related problems. In fact, I never used sodium thio. for either of the two, though I have a bottle of it somewhere. I dillute, if I recall it correctly, about 1:16. I have not printed salt prints for some time, but this is what I rmember: they used to change their colour considerably - turned into an ugly, pale yellow during fixing, but did not loose much highlight density - though some overprinting is necessary - and regained their colour afterwards. I used to tone them after fixing, a practice I have discarded since.
Fully toned kallitypes don't bleach at all, neither do they change their colour apprechiably.

 

[donbga]

It is certainly necessary to be careful, but I have been using rapid fix (amonium thio.) for salt prints and -allready toned! - kallitypes without fixing-related problems. In fact, I never used sodium thio. for either of the two, though I have a bottle of it somewhere. I dillute, if I recall it correctly, about 1:16. I have not printed salt prints for some time, but this is what I rmember: they used to change their colour considerably - turned into an ugly, pale yellow during fixing, but did not loose much highlight density - though some overprinting is necessary - and regained their colour afterwards. I used to tone them after fixing, a practice I have discarded since.
Fully toned kallitypes don't bleach at all, neither do they change their colour apprechiably.

Hi Lukas.

Thanks for the tip. At least I can use that as a starting point. Most of the time I tone kallis and VDBs before fixing so I'll give it a try. I'm using a concentrate for which one would dilute 1:9 for silver gelatin prints. I wonder if your ratio is made from concentrate?

Thanks,

Don Bryant

 

[sanking]

Hi Lukas.

Thanks for the tip. At least I can use that as a starting point. Most of the time I tone kallis and VDBs before fixing so I'll give it a try. I'm using a concentrate for which one would dilute 1:9 for silver gelatin prints. I wonder if your ratio is made from concentrate?

Thanks,

Don Bryant

Don,

I am certain that if used in weak enough concentration ammonium thiosulfate would not cause bleaching.

However, this is the fixer I use for both VDB and kallitype, and I always fix after toning.

Add 200g sodium thiosulfate, 40g sodium carbonate and 8g sodium sulfite to 750ml water. Stir. When dissolved, add water to 1000ml. Dilue 1:3 for a working solution.

Typically I use two fixing baths. The first is the second one used for the previous print, which I then discard, the second is fresh. For both baths I use a small amount of the diluted fixer, just enough to go over the paper evenly with rocking of the tray.

Sandy

 

[donbga]

Don,

I am certain that if used in weak enough concentration ammonium thiosulfate would not cause bleaching.

However, this is the fixer I use for both VDB and kallitype, and I always fix after toning.

Add 200g sodium thiosulfate, 40g sodium carbonate and 8g sodium sulfite to 750ml water. Stir. When dissolved, add water to 1000ml. Dilue 1:3 for a working solution.

Typically I use two fixing baths. The first is the second one used for the previous print, which I then discard, the second is fresh. For both baths I use a small amount of the diluted fixer, just enough to go over the paper evenly with rocking of the tray.

Sandy

Sandy,

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel here, the toning/fixing regimen you described is what I've been following with kallis and VDBs. With the exception of selenium toning which comes after fixing.

My interest in using rapid fix is simply one of convenience. Currently I mix 7 or 8 gallons of the sodium thiosulfate in concentrated form per your article and that works fine. I would really like to eliminate the need to store that many containers and reduce my chemical inventory if possible.

BTW, I've had excellent results printing Kallis this past weekend on oxalic acid treated Fabriano Artistico Extra White. This seems to be an excellent paper with kallitype. The paper was originally treated for palladium printing but on a whim I thought I would print Kallitypes with the treated paper.

Don Bryant

 

[Lukas Werth]

Sandy noted the sodium carbonate which I completely forgot to mention, though I always add it, also to ammonium thiosulphate, and I think it is essential (it greatly reduces the bleach). I normally don't measure it, but add some teaspoons to a larger quantity until the bubbling more or less stops. One fixer I have used is more acid than another one, and therefore takes more.
If you want to use your 1:9 solution, try 1:19, I'd say.

 

[donbga]

Sandy noted the sodium carbonate which I completely forgot to mention, though I always add it, also to ammonium thiosulphate, and I think it is essential (it greatly reduces the bleach). I normally don't measure it, but add some teaspoons to a larger quantity until the bubbling more or less stops. One fixer I have used is more acid than another one, and therefore takes more.
If you want to use your 1:9 solution, try 1:19, I'd say.

Thanks Lukas. I'll try to compare the results of two step tablets and see if there is any bleaching from the diluted deacified rapid fix.

Best,

Don

 

[cjarvis]

Or you can use Kodak Rapid Fix sans hardener 1:10.

 

[donbga]

Or you can use Kodak Rapid Fix sans hardener 1:10.

Kodak Rapid Fix at that dilution and pH will cause VDB and Kallitypes to bleach, which BTW is the point of this thread.

I've found that most rapid fixes are essentially made of the same basic chemicals just at different concentrations. I used Kodak Rapid fix (without hardener) for years with silver gelatin prints but Eastman now charges way too much for that product and I quit using it 2 or so years ago. Instead I now use Photowarehouse Rapid Fixer.

Don Bryant

 

[cjarvis]

Have you tested the pH of your water?

 

[donbga]

Have you tested the pH of your water?

Yes.

 

[Colin Graham]

Don, did you have much success with the 1:19 dilution of your (normally) 1:9 fixer? I'm out of plain hypo for the long weekend and was going to try this. Thanks.

 

[donbga]

Don, did you have much success with the 1:19 dilution of your (normally) 1:9 fixer? I'm out of plain hypo for the long weekend and was going to try this. Thanks.

Colin,

I have yet to actually try it but know people who have without problems. I still have a few pounds of sodium thio left so I'm using that until it's gone. See Lukas's post earlier in this thread. I have full confidence in his remarks as he is an excellent alt. process practitioner. Test it for your self and see.

Good luck,

Don

 

[Colin Graham]

Thanks Don. Hopefully I'll find some time this weekend if I ever get though my wife's chore list!