using photographic paper instead of film negative

[jmccl@yahoo.com]

In some threads that I have seen recently there was a suggestion to use paper rather than film in the camera. Do you just use something like Ilford or Fuji photo paper that you can get from B&H? What would be the down side to exposing directly to paper as opposed to exposing on a film negative and then printing to paper? How would you know what the ASA sensitivity is?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Jim

 

[AgX]

There also is reversal paper, specially made for in-camera use.

 

[Kino]

In some threads that I have seen recently there was a suggestion to use paper rather than film in the camera. Do you just use something like Ilford or Fuji photo paper that you can get from B&H? What would be the down side to exposing directly to paper as opposed to exposing on a film negative and then printing to paper? How would you know what the ASA sensitivity is?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Jim

Traditionally, it is used in sheet format and with larger format cameras to make contact prints, but some do use it in roll film cameras.

Yes, you can use it, however if there is a makers imprint on the backside of the paper, that will be in your image when you contact print or enlarge the image.

Added to this, the paper grain will be present from the paper itself. I am unsure if anyone still sells photo paper without the maker's imprint, but there used to be paper like that.

Paper negatives are as old as photography itself and I am sure there will be others far more knowledgeable than myself who chime-in here...

Meanwhile, look at this... https://emulsive.org/articles/working-with-paper-negatives-part-one-a-story-of-thrift-and-magic

 

[tedr1]

Here is the section dedicated to paper negatives https://www.photrio.com/forum/forums/paper-negatives.95/

 

[Sirius Glass]

Paper is thicker than the film so placing the paper in the camera needs to be considered.

 

[removed account4]

In some threads that I have seen recently there was a suggestion to use paper rather than film in the camera. Do you just use something like Ilford or Fuji photo paper that you can get from B&H? What would be the down side to exposing directly to paper as opposed to exposing on a film negative and then printing to paper? How would you know what the ASA sensitivity is?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Jim

Hi Jim !

Using paper as negatives is a lot of fun and takes practice
Paper sensitivity can vary wildly between types of paper but generally speaking its around iso 24, a lot of people swear by iso 6 so there you go. It is a different sensitivity then film so your reds will look black, your skys washed out, complexions ruddy. "orthochromatic" ... and any paper will work. Old paper is good too because its slight fog will help dampen the contrast, overcast days can be your friend. you don't have to scan or contact print your paper negatives ( it is common practice to scan or contact print ) you can also make one of these: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/paper-negative-enlarger-prototype.122382/

Have fun !
john

 

[RalphLambrecht]

In some threads that I have seen recently there was a suggestion to use paper rather than film in the camera. Do you just use something like Ilford or Fuji photo paper that you can get from B&H? What would be the down side to exposing directly to paper as opposed to exposing on a film negative and then printing to paper? How would you know what the ASA sensitivity is?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Jim

This is typically referred to as paper negatives and very effective in LF cameras and especially for pinhole cameras. One usesregular darkroom PE paper and contact prints it emulsion side to emulsion side back onto the same kind of paper to produce a positive. In my experience, a yellow taking filter muffles the high contrast as a result of the papers blue sensitivity and I usually treat the paper as having an ISO of '3',which works very well.

 

[AgX]

Paper negatives are as old as photography itself and I am sure there will be others far more knowledgeable than myself who chime-in here...

You refer to the Talbotype.

High-speed emulsion (for taking, not for enlarging) on paper still has a long tradition:
it started with the Kodak camera.
It returned for some time during and past WWII in Europe.
With Washi "film" it even returned now.

However the use was different over time: emulsion was lifted off and itself used in transmission , kept on paper and used in reflection, or with the latest form transmissive through the paper base.

 

[Mike Crawford]

In some threads that I have seen recently there was a suggestion to use paper rather than film in the camera. Do you just use something like Ilford or Fuji photo paper that you can get from B&H? What would be the down side to exposing directly to paper as opposed to exposing on a film negative and then printing to paper? How would you know what the ASA sensitivity is?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Jim

Paper negs can give great results and is a very economical way to use large format. One thing to avoid (in my opinion) is not to give the neg a normal paper development as it will result in a very harsh, contrasty neg. i did a large portrait project with a friend a few years ago, and after lots of testing, settled on a rating of 3 ISO but developed in PQ developer at 1+40 or 1+50 for about 3 minutes to produce a softer neg. (Don't have my notes to hamd!) Of course the tonality is Orthochromatic, so can be similar to the look of Collodion. The ones here on this link were all shot in the same studio with daylight, nearly all at 8 second exposures, but moving the subject to get different lighting results. Also using white and black reflectors to model the light.
http://www.mike-crawford.co.uk/portfolio/atkinson-crawford/atkinson-crawford-one.html

An example below of the tonalty of the negatives. For full disclosure, I did scan the negatives for digital printing to avoid printing through the texture of the paper base, though a friend has a great way of printing using a large vertical process camera to print directly from the negative which is illuminated by the copy lights.

 

[tezzasmall]

Using paper as negatives is a lot of fun and takes practice
Paper sensitivity can vary wildly between types of paper but generally speaking its around iso 24, a lot of people swear by iso 6 so there you go.

I think John meant 2 - 4, rather than 24.

Lots of info given for you to read, so I will only say that I use Ilford paper = both ordinary darkroom paper and their reversal paper, which was specially made for in camera use. Note that none of the Ilford papers have their name on the reverse of the papers, as in the 'older days' (LOL) so is fine to use as a negative paper to contact print with.

Have fun!

Terry S

 

[removed account4]

I think John meant 2 - 4, rather than 24.

Hi Terry
noooo I mean iso 24
Photo Engineer has shown those little colored grid patterns (Macbeth Color Charts?) with a variety of ISOs and paper negative exposures; ISO 24 were the keepers ! * https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/iso-rating-of-ilford-paper.53272/#post-777998 ) When illumiquest was doing his paper negatives in his big old camera he said the same thing it was ISO 24. To be honest I don't go by ISOs anymore with paper negatives but my gut LOL. Sorry OP not much help for you there

It has to do with the time of day and the kind of day and which paper you are using because photo paper is sensitive to blue light and depending on the location, and type of day &c there is a different amount of blue light, and then ... on top of it all every emulsion is different, so there's a lot of details. Years ago I did paper negative tests on every paper I could get my hands on both fiber and rc ( must have been close to 20 emulsions, maybe more maybe less ) and some papers were ISO below 1 while others were much faster. The best way to do it is to grab whatever camera you are going to be using, and put a card infront of the lens and make a "test strip" with a sheet of paper in different lighting conditions and different times of day. That way it takes some of the guessowrk out of exposures.

At the end of the day do what ever works, seeing there are a million and 1 details Carfeful though, paper negatives are a lot of fun, and in the end it can turn into a deep rabbit hole .. with the paper negativist making their own cameras and lenses, or spooling their own 122 rolls, or making emulsion, reflective enlargers &c

Have fun!

Exactly !

John

 

[Kino]

Another thing to keep in mind is that modern lenses are corrected to focus RGB in the focus plane as closely as possible. Lenses prior to panchromatic film are designed to focus mainly blue light at the focal plane.

You could conceivably get better results with older lenses, but I don't know if it would be worth the hassle hunting them down...

 

[ciniframe]

Another advantage to using photo paper is that it can be handled under safelight. Makes loading film holders much easier. And don't discount 35mm SLR's usefulness to shoot paper negs. Not as a roll but single shot loaded in the darkroom. Cut the paper 34mm X 55mm, (that's right, give yourself a little leeway). Place on inner rails and use a bit of easy release masking tape to secure edge. Now, with a fast normal and in good light at f2 you will be able to expose handheld at 1/30 to 1/125, depending on paper sensitivity.
Scan the resulting negative to make a enlarged positive with a ink jet printer.
About direct positive paper. Okay but remember all images will be mirror reversed. That does not bother some folks.
Go on YouTube and look up "Joe Van Cleave, paper negatives" He is a member of this forum and is very generous in sharing his extensive experience using paper as a negative.

 

[NedL]

Carfeful though, paper negatives are a lot of fun, and in the end it can turn into a deep rabbit hole .. with the paper negativist making their own cameras and lenses, or spooling their own 122 rolls, or making emulsion, reflective enlargers....

You might start by putting a single piece of photopaper in a camera you found in your garage, and end up trying to make negatives and prints they way they were made 170 years ago.

 

[Kino]

35mm perforated paper prints have been around since 1894...

I've worked with them extensively, but will let Wikipedia tell the story... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_print

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Paper negs can give great results and is a very economical way to use large format. One thing to avoid (in my opinion) is not to give the neg a normal paper development as it will result in a very harsh, contrasty neg. i did a large portrait project with a friend a few years ago, and after lots of testing, settled on a rating of 3 ISO but developed in PQ developer at 1+40 or 1+50 for about 3 minutes to produce a softer neg. (Don't have my notes to hamd!) Of course the tonality is Orthochromatic, so can be similar to the look of Collodion. The ones here on this link were all shot in the same studio with daylight, nearly all at 8 second exposures, but moving the subject to get different lighting results. Also using white and black reflectors to model the light.
http://www.mike-crawford.co.uk/portfolio/atkinson-crawford/atkinson-crawford-one.html

An example below of the tonalty of the negatives. For full disclosure, I did scan the negatives for digital printing to avoid printing through the texture of the paper base, though a friend has a great way of printing using a large vertical process camera to print directly from the negative which is illuminated by the copy lights.

I control the harsh contrast by using a light-yellow filter during exposure and dilute Dektol 1+8 to get a softerneg that easily contrst-prints on grade-2 paper again. BTW, I also rate the paper at ISO 3 for in-camera exposure. best of luck to you.

 

[removed account4]

You might start by putting a single piece of photopaper in a camera you found in your garage, and end up trying to make negatives and prints they way they were made 170 years ago.

yeah i know .. or making a modern kinora >> dang paper negatives!

 

[mshchem]

Back in the day 50's, 60's etc. Kodak made dozens of products thin light weight paper for graphic arts, book making etc. I remember watching guys in a print shop making "reflex copies" made a sandwich starting with single weight paper emulsion up, item you wanted to copy face down on the emulsion of the single weight paper, then a piece of black paper on top of the original to be copied. Then they exposed the single weight paper by arc or mercury vapor THROUGH the single weight paper. The light would pass through the SW paper bounce off the white on the original and result in a reversed paper negative of the original. They would somehow use this to make a plate, I can't remember if they shot a Kodalith of this or not, I was amazed that they didn't just get a black piece of paper. I haven't seen this done in 40 years. The old Kodak databooks on copying describe it.

 

[WilmarcoImaging]

This is fairly well discussed on the large format site if more input is desired.

 

[NedL]

.. or making a modern kinora ...

Didn't know about that!
Now I want to make one

 

[dwross]

You can also make your own paper negatives. Just about the easiest thing to do with handmade emulsions. The emulsion doesn't have to be washed and coating on paper is much easier than on glass or film. It makes ULF photography especially inexpensive.

 

[jamesaz]

Back in the day 50's, 60's etc. Kodak made dozens of products thin light weight paper for graphic arts, book making etc. I remember watching guys in a print shop making "reflex copies" made a sandwich starting with single weight paper emulsion up, item you wanted to copy face down on the emulsion of the single weight paper, then a piece of black paper on top of the original to be copied. Then they exposed the single weight paper by arc or mercury vapor THROUGH the single weight paper. The light would pass through the SW paper bounce off the white on the original and result in a reversed paper negative of the original. They would somehow use this to make a plate, I can't remember if they shot a Kodalith of this or not, I was amazed that they didn't just get a black piece of paper. I haven't seen this done in 40 years. The old Kodak databooks on copying describe it.

Yes, I remember making photostat copies with this type of material. It came on a roll and first you made a contact negative then a positive from that. Or, by turning the original over and exposing through the back side you could make a right reading negative document. They were developed in dektol.

 

[removed account4]

You can also make your own paper negatives. Just about the easiest thing to do with handmade emulsions. The emulsion doesn't have to be washed and coating on paper is much easier than on glass or film. It makes ULF photography especially inexpensive.

YES !!

yeah i know .. or making home brew emulsion >> dang paper negatives!

Photography is more fun than mere mortals should have

 

[tezzasmall]

Hi Terry
noooo I mean iso 24
Photo Engineer has shown those little colored grid patterns (Macbeth Color Charts?) with a variety of ISOs and paper negative exposures; ISO 24 were the keepers ! * https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/iso-rating-of-ilford-paper.53272/#post-777998 ) When illumiquest was doing his paper negatives in his big old camera he said the same thing it was ISO 24. To be honest I don't go by ISOs anymore with paper negatives but my gut LOL.
John

Ah, okay John, I stand (happily) corrected!

It just seems like the totally opposite to what I've found out, like the majority, that on a good sunny day, ISO 6 is about right and sometimes with a bit of cloud down to ISO 3. I just can't imagine getting ANYTHING on my paper negs if I did an (educated) exposure at ISO 24, but next time I've got the pinholer out, I will do a few more tests. I'll now go off to read the other set of posts from the link you've given, to see if this point is just with a certain paper, in certain weather and in a certain developer and report back if necessary.

Terry S

 

[Joe VanCleave]

This is fairly well discussed on the large format site if more input is desired.

There's a paper negative sub-forum here on APUG/Photrio, a wealth of information for those seeking to learn from the experience of others.

• Joe