Using old, slow cameras with today's films

tbm · Aug 2, 2006

I just bought a Rolleiflex 2.8 A Model 2 camera, manufactured in 1950, with a Zeiss 2.8 lens. The obvious problem: The maximum shutter speed this camera allows is only 1/200th of a second. Does this mean I have to pull 100, 125, 400, and higher speed films to perhaps ISO 25 or 50, or use slow speed films, in bright sun? Thanks for the education and edification you can provide!

Terry

Kino · Aug 2, 2006

NDs are our friend.

df cardwell · Aug 2, 2006

N.D.s... yep

Amazing how an old camera improves as the films improve.

Avedon never retired his old Rolleis ( that Fred Astaire danced with in Funny Face ).

tbm · Aug 2, 2006

Kino, I would abhor having to hold an ND filter over the small lens accurately, and I am not sure if filters of any size are compatible with the lens's diameter.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 2, 2006

There are only 12 shots on a roll. If it's high noon and you've got 400 in the camera left over from low light shooting, it's not a big deal to sacrifice a few frames and switch to slower film. A film that has a real speed of 100 will let you get f:11 at 1/200 sec. in bright daylight, which is a pretty good general shooting aperture for 6x6. If you shoot B&W, slower films or developers that result in a lower speed are an option.

With my old folder and TLR, I'm usually shooting at the top two speeds handheld.

There are Rollei bayonet filters, but ask the Rolleiphiles for details.

Dave Parker · Aug 2, 2006

Actually tbm, its not that hard, compose, set the shutter speed and the f stop, plase an ND a bit bigger over the lens and press the shutter button, many of us have been doing it for years now..unless your using split grads, it is really pretty easy.

Dave

Kino · Aug 2, 2006

Dave Parker said:
Actually tbm, its not that hard, compose, set the shutter speed and the f stop, plase an ND a bit bigger over the lens and press the shutter button, many of us have been doing it for years now..unless your using split grads, it is really pretty easy.

Dave

Yes, that's how I do it with my Yashica D and, unless you are doing action photography (and if you are doing that with a TLR, hats off to you!) it works just fine.

You can always obtain an ND gel and cut a filter to fit down inside the front of the lens with a bit of tape to hold it in place.

Only problem there is the cost of gels! OUCH! Man are they expensive now...

tbm · Aug 2, 2006

Well, guys, this old Rollei is completely automatic and there is no way to even set one's film speed. I will be using it with my Sekonic L-508 Zoom Master spot meter, but if I use filters of any kind I will have to remember to adjust the meter's reading by a certain number of stops, won't I? If so, wouldn't that slow my picture taking down demonstrably?

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 2, 2006

Not once you get used to it. If you leave the same filter on the lens all the time, compensate for it with the ISO setting on the meter, and then you won't even need to think about it.

Kino · Aug 2, 2006

Just reduce your ASA on your meter to match your ND.

Assuming 400 ISO film...

.30 equals 1 stop or one halving of the ISO, set meter to 200 ISO and shoot normal.

.60 equals 2 stops or 2x halving of the ISO, set meter to 100 ISO and shoot normal.

.90 equals 3 stops or 4x halving of the ISO, set meter to 50 ISO and shoot normal.

tbm · Aug 2, 2006

Thanks, Kino, however, I rarely use 400-speed film and instead primarily shoot with Delta 100, Acros 100, and FP4+ which are rated at 100, 100, and 125, respectively. Would you please indicate the adjustment for that speed?
Thanks!

Terry

Kino · Aug 2, 2006

Well you should be gold using 100-200 ASA (assuming the Sunny 16 rule) or lower but here goes anyway;

Remember, in photography everything is linked logarithmically. (OK, before you scream, let me tell you, fine arts major here specifically to avoid math, so If I can do it, you can)

Every time you double or halve ASA/ISO you equal 1 stop. 12-25-50-100-200-400 are all 1 stop apart in exposure.

1/2 stop increments would be halfway between those figures.

1/3 ditto, you get it, right?

So if you load 125 ISO film in and want to overexpose it by one stop...?

set your meter near 60 ASA and shoot normal.

If you put a filter in front of your lens and don't know the compensation factor, point the meter at a scene and note the reading. Now, without moving it, put the meter over the cell and note the reading. What fraction of a stop did it absorb?

Dial it in or simply compensate manually; it shouldn't slow you down with a bit of practice and once you start thinking in logs, photography seems to make much more sense.

df cardwell · Aug 2, 2006

tbm said:
Kino, I would abhor having to hold an ND filter over the small lens accurately, and I am not sure if filters of any size are compatible with the lens's diameter.

If you can't find an ND for a Rollei bayonet mount,
scavenge a Rollei filter, and an ND filter for some other mount.

Hunt down a tame optical shop, problem solved.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Aug 3, 2006

Or even better: find a Bay I (II? III? check your model) to 49mm adaptor from the usual auction site, and work gladly with standard filters.

Zathras · Aug 3, 2006

tbm said:
I just bought a Rolleiflex 2.8 A Model 2 camera, manufactured in 1950, with a Zeiss 2.8 lens. The obvious problem: The maximum shutter speed this camera allows is only 1/200th of a second. Does this mean I have to pull 100, 125, 400, and higher speed films to perhaps ISO 25 or 50, or use slow speed films, in bright sun? Thanks for the education and edification you can provide!

Terry

Terry,

I just looked at a photo of a 2.8a and noticed that it, like all Rollei 2.8's, has a bayonet filter fitting around the taking lens. The filter size is Bay-III, also marked as R-III on the filter. You will also need a lens shade in the Bay-III size. The filter mounts to the inner bayonet mount and the shade would mount over the filter to the outer bayonet. These items can be found on eBay.

I have heard the 2.8 Tessar is not the greatest lens that ever went on a Rollei. In my very biased opinion, If you're going to shoot a Rolleiflex, I recommend a later model 2.8 such as a D or E model with the Schneider Xenotar Lens. Frighteningly sharp! At the risk of offending the Planar fans, I'll stick my neck out and say that I find it much more impressive than the 80mm Planar on my Hasselblad.

Regarding film, You should be able to get by with what you use now, without resorting to pulling film development.

The top shutter speed on your camera should be 1/500 or 1/400 second.
Try setting this speed with the shutter uncocked. You can damage the Compur shutter by trying to force it to the highest speed with the shutter cocked.

Hope this helps

Mike Sullivan

Roger Hicks · Aug 3, 2006

Dear Terry,

With a minimum aperture of f/16 and 1/200 you'll be spot on anyway, even with ISO 400 film. The 'sunny 16' rule is more applicable to trannies; with mono, 'sunny 11' (=1/200 @ f/16) often gives better shadow detail and more pleasing tonality.

I'm more than a little puzzled about a completely automatic camera with no way to set the film speed. What is it preset for? And if you can't set anything, what is the point of a meter? It's early and I'm not fully awake yet but I must be missing something. I know there were fully auto Rolleis but I can't find my Rollei book to check yours.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances,com)

tbm · Aug 3, 2006

Mike, regarding your statement of "The top shutter speed on your camera should be 1/500 or 1/400 second. Try setting this speed with the shutter uncocked. You can damage the Compur shutter by trying to force it to the highest speed with the shutter cocked.", I hadn't heard of this before and I will definitely try it today while I am shooting a test roll of FP4+. Thanks very much!

Terry

Petzi · Aug 3, 2006

Why NDs? For b/w photography, a yellow or red filter would reduce shutter speed substantially, so you don't need a ND filter.

Besides, 1/200 s would work fine even with ASA 400 speed film. I hardly ever use the 1/500 s on my Mamiya.

ZorkiKat · Aug 3, 2006

Don't leaf shutters give a bit more extra exposure when set to their highest speeds when used with small apertures?

I remember reading a note of this sort with the leaflets that came with old Ektachrome 400. Must be an issue relevant only to chrome films though.
Jay

tbm · Aug 3, 2006

Fantastic! Pursuant to your instruction, Mike, I was indeed able to change the shutter speed to 1/400th of a second before winding forward to the next shot. I also loaded a roll of FP4+ into my 2.8A, incident metered on this overcast day, and shot the entire roll from f/22 all the way to f/2.8 with corresponding shutter speeds, and I will shortly process the film in Perceptol to see how the various f-stops performed because a pro shooter/friend last night told me the Tessar lenses wide open aren't as good as the Planars wide open. Can't wait to see the results!

Terry

Zathras · Aug 4, 2006

tbm said:
Fantastic! Pursuant to your instruction, Mike, I was indeed able to change the shutter speed to 1/400th of a second before winding forward to the next shot. I also loaded a roll of FP4+ into my 2.8A, incident metered on this overcast day, and shot the entire roll from f/22 all the way to f/2.8 with corresponding shutter speeds, and I will shortly process the film in Perceptol to see how the various f-stops performed because a pro shooter/friend last night told me the Tessar lenses wide open aren't as good as the Planars wide open. Can't wait to see the results!

Terry

Cool,

Let us know how it turns out. Tessars can give nice results from about f8 and smaller.

Mike

Ole · Aug 4, 2006

Zathras said:
..,Tessars can give nice results from about f8 and smaller.

They can give great results at full opening too!
Dead Link Removed

That's a Xenar 300mm f:4.5 at f:4.5, on 5x7" film with lots of swing.

Donald Qualls · Aug 5, 2006

Umm. TBM? Doesn't the aperture on that Rollei stop down to f/22, maybe even f/32? Unless you're trying to use a wide aperture for selective focus in bright sun, you shouldn't be running out of exposure range even with ISO 400 (f/22 at 1/200 is just right for Sunny conditions with ISO 400) -- I certainly don't have that problem with my Kodak Reflex II, though it gets a little dicey with my Argoflex EF that only stops down to f/18 and has a top speed of 1/200.

An alternative to a ND, BTW (and quite possibly a good bit cheaper), is a lens cap with a precisely sized hole. Polaroid did this on several of their roll-film models in the late 1950s, to accomodate super-high speed Type 47 film in cameras that could stop down via diaphragm only to f/32 or f/45; the lens "cap" on these is actually an auxiliary aperture at f/90. There were also accessory aperture caps that were sold for some years to fit many standard lenses like a cap or filter. If you can find a slip-on lens cap for your Rollei, it should be simple to drill a hole in the center to 2.5 mm diameter to provide f/32, letting you shoot as slow as 1/100 in Sunny conditions with ISO 100 film (and incidentally giving hyperfocal from about four feet to the horizon, with focus set to eight feet).

sjperry · Aug 5, 2006

Wait a minute. What Rollei model do you actually have? The 2.8A Model 2 should have speeds as fast as 1/400 and absolutely nothing automatic about it. It would have been made in 1951 and does NOT even have a meter. Rollei didn't use internal meters until about '56 with the 2.8E. I have a 2.8E, and you set everything, using the meter as aguide only. Are you possibly confused abbout the model you have or is there something I'm not getting here?

nworth · Aug 6, 2006

1/200 is only a stop over the usual top speed for MF cameras (1/500). It shouldn't be that much of a problem. Older cameras usually had accuracy problems at high speeds, and it is probably best to sick to the 1/50 to 1/200 range for general shooting. With high speed film, that gives you very little range in the f-stops, however, and limits depth of field control. You may be anxious about losing the look of your high speed film. It's hard to find a replacement for Tri-X. If that is the case, a couple of ND filters may be the way to go when you need more control. But there are several good films out there in the ISO 100 range (e.g. Ilford FP4+, Kodak TMax 100 and 125PX). Ilford XP2+ chromogenic black and white film is outstanding at EI 200 - 250. Try several rolls of slower film and see if you like them. Of course, with slower shutter speeds, a tripod becomes ever more important.

Using old, slow cameras with today's films

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