Using Medical Nikkor front elements as a casket lens set for large format

JohnSiskin · Nov 22, 2024

This is just a quick note about using the lenses for a Medical Nikkor as a casket lens set for large format photography. I’ve been playing with this idea for a while. Found a shutter that allows me to mount the lenses on either side of the shutter/diaphragm, which makes this easy to set up. The complete set, which were used as interchangeable front elements on the Medical Nikkor lens to give different reproduction ratios, will provide focal lengths from over 2000mm to about 50mm. That’s if you use only a single, or pair, of the lenses. The Medical Nikkor says that you can use as many as 3 of the lenses together, which would further extend the range of the lenses. I believe each of the lenses is a cemented doublet, coated and reasonably well corrected. The lenses are marked 1/8, 1/6, ¼, ½. 1x and 2x, but this doesn’t correspond to anything but the reproduction ratio of the Medical Nikkor lens. I am working with a set from the original 200mm version of the lens. Anyone have any experience with these as large format lenses? I am including 2 shots made with the ½ lens behind the shutter and 1x in front. These were close to the subject which gave considerable bellows extension. Ilford Delta 100 film processed in xtol. Thanks for your attention

lobitar · Nov 22, 2024

Looks interesting. Reminds me I should have - or at least have had? - half a set (or something) somewhere in the attic. What was the resulting focal length for your sample shots? Would it be the no.1 Compur shutter to fit?

JohnSiskin · Nov 22, 2024

I used an old shutter that has about a 1" aperture. The focal length at infinity for the 1/2 & 1x together is about 5 inches at infinity. I used it at about 8 inches and about 11 inches. Because the aperture is about 1 inch all I need to do is measure the used distance between the shutter and the film and use that as my wide open aperture, so 8 inches for the stump photo, and stop down from there. I was shooting at an aperture of f64 for the stump photo, at least that was the aperture for the exposure. I hope this makes sense? I think the shutter would be closer to a #0. Thanks John Siskin

lobitar · Nov 23, 2024

Thanks for this info. I think I gave up on trying to use the lenses as objectives on account of the resulting short focal length, and no suitable shutter. But your results are very nice. I suppose they would be equally suitable for color.
Come to think of it I'm afraid I sold mine at some point? (although I'm not sure).

_T_ · Nov 23, 2024

The bokeh on that tree trunk looks really interesting. I can’t figure out exactly what’s going on with it. It’s not swirling but still has some movement, maybe some kind of distortion in the axial direction?

Not sure but it looks really cool.

JohnSiskin · Nov 23, 2024

Hi Lobitar, The 1/8 lens has a very long focal length, longer than 2 Toyo monorails. The 1/2X lens has a focal length of about 20 inches, the 1/6 and the 1/8 will be longer. So long lenses are quite possible. The 1x and the 2x together are about a 3 inch lens. Really quite a range. Findint the right shutter, or modifying a shutter is the real trick. Thanks for your interest

JohnSiskin · Nov 23, 2024

_T_ said:
The bokeh on that tree trunk looks really interesting. I can’t figure out exactly what’s going on with it. It’s not swirling but still has some movement, maybe some kind of distortion in the axial direction?

Not sure but it looks really cool.

Hi T, I think the lens has some really interesting effects with the out of focus areas. This is the 1/2 behind the shutter and the 1x in front. At infinity it might cover 5x7, but at full aperture all but the center of the frame would be soft. In these shots there is considerable bellows extension because the subject is so close. Also the lens is stopped far down. It will take quite a while to be aware of the possibilities of this set. Thanks for your attention

lobitar · Nov 24, 2024

JohnSiskin said:
Hi Lobitar, The 1/8 lens has a very long focal length, longer than 2 Toyo monorails. The 1/2X lens has a focal length of about 20 inches, the 1/6 and the 1/8 will be longer. So long lenses are quite possible. The 1x and the 2x together are about a 3 inch lens. Really quite a range. Findint the right shutter, or modifying a shutter is the real trick. Thanks for your interest

Thank you. I asked the guy I thought I might have sold the (half)set to a few years ago, but he denies having bought the lenses. So possibly they are still in the attic. I'ill give a squeak if they turns up. Possibly I only have the shorter focal lengths, though.

JohnSiskin · Nov 24, 2024

lobitar said:
Thank you. I asked the guy I thought I might have sold the (half)set to a few years ago, but he denies having bought the lenses. So possibly they are still in the attic. I'ill give a squeak if they turns up. Possibly I only have the shorter focal lengths, though.

The smaller the number of the lens element the longer the focal length. As with so many things in photography: everything is backwards

JohnSiskin · Nov 25, 2024

This is the list I did of combinations. It's not entirely accurate. It's in English units (inches) rather than metric. But it's something. I had no way to measure the single elements 1/8, 1/6, 1/4. I hope it's useful. By the way I use inches to figure my working aperture; it' easier. Thanks, John Siskin

lobitar · Nov 25, 2024

Nice list, thanks! Hope I find the lenses (although probably not in '24?).

JohnSiskin · Nov 26, 2024

lobitar said:
Nice list, thanks! Hope I find the lenses (although probably not in '24?).

It's worth playing with!

JohnSiskin · Nov 27, 2024

This is another shot made with the new, to me, Burke & James 5x7 camera. The camera is actually more than 60 years old. Anyway, I was using the front elements from the Medical Nikkor there are more than 40 possible combinations of these lenses, unless you use 3 elements which would give you many more. It’s a little like having a zoom lens on digital camera, sort of. I think this shot demonstrates that considerable sharpness can be achieved. I was using the 1/2 element behind the shutter and the 1/4 element in front. Aperture was about f56 and shutter speed was 4 seconds. I was shooting Ilford Delta film, processed in xtol. Thanks for your attention

JohnSiskin · Nov 28, 2024

One more test with the Medical Nikkor elements. Here I had 18 inches of bellows, which would be 450mm and focused at infinity. I think I was using the 1/2 in back of the shutter and the 1/6 in front. Might have to start taking notes. Ilford Delta 100 processed in xtol. Thanks for your attention

JohnSiskin · Nov 29, 2024

I felt like sending out a picture from the Medical Nikkor using it in a more normal configuration.The thing is a macro/micro lens designed to shoot surgery. It was introduced in the 60s. I’ve got it on a Nikon D-850 for this shot. I used a Godox flash, but the lens does have a built in ring light. This was part of a large group of shots I did which demonstrated the ways various lenses see. You can check that out at this link: https://siskinphoto.com/blog/?p=5415. Thanks for your attention

JohnSiskin · Dec 3, 2024

I had a request to post a picture of the set up for the Medical Nikkor elements for large format use. You can clearly see the conversion board I built to use Speed Graphic lens boards on the camera. I’m also including a picture of the Burke and James 5x7 camera. for a camera that is at east 60 years old it’s in remarkable condition. Of course I’ve recently posted some pictures made with the camera and lens. Thanks for your attention

lobitar · Dec 3, 2024

Nice camera! Also seems to be the exact twin to my first 'real' LF-camera, acquired abt. 50 years ago in a pro-shop in Copenhagen. I still use the 5x7 back on another camera. Incidentally am a bit confused by the lens set-up. Seems you have screwed the M-Nikkor lens into the filter thread of the old Tessar (4.5 - 135/150mm?) in old no. 2 Compound shutter. Did you use the M-Nikkor lens as a close-up add-on, or have you removed the lenses of the Tessar entirely? Just curiousl

JohnSiskin · Dec 3, 2024

lobitar said:
Nice camera! Also seems to be the exact twin to my first 'real' LF-camera, acquired abt. 50 years ago in a pro-shop in Copenhagen. I still use the 5x7 back on another camera. Incidentally am a bit confused by the lens set-up. Seems you have screwed the M-Nikkor lens into the filter thread of the old Tessar (4.5 - 135/150mm?) in old no. 2 Compound shutter. Did you use the M-Nikkor lens as a close-up add-on, or have you removed the lenses of the Tessar entirely? Just curiousl

Remarkable cameras. Quite tough! I removed the glass from the lens. Didn't need another tessar. The medical nikkor elements fit into both side of the shutter. Right now I am keeping the 1/2x element in back

reddesert · Dec 6, 2024

I don't have this lens or the front elements, but a couple of remarks on the focal length combinations:

I read that the main lens by itself is a 200mm lens that focuses to 1:15 - see https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/special/250medical.htm . That means it extends to about 200 * (1 + 1/15) or about 213 mm ~ 8.5 inches. When the 1x aux lens is added, it can focus to 1:1. Because 1:1 is basically symmetrical, that tells us the focal length of the 1x aux lens is about 8.5" (agrees reasonably well with JohnSiskin's table of post-it notes that estimates the 1x lens at 9").

The focal lengths of the other aux lenses should be roughly in the inverse of the printed ratio to the 1x lens, so the 2x lens should be half the focal length of the 1x lens or about 4.25-4.5"; the 1/2x lens should be about twice the focal length of the 1x or 17-18"; and so on.

When combining two of the aux lenses, you can estimate the combined focal length from the usual formula:

1 / f_combined = 1/ f1 + 1 / f2 - d / (f1 * f2)

where d is the length of the airspace between the two lenses. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens#Compound_lenses , where the text says "If two thin lenses are separated in air by some distance d, then the focal length [is given by] ..."

JohnSiskin · Dec 7, 2024

reddesert said:
I don't have this lens or the front elements, but a couple of remarks on the focal length combinations:

I read that the main lens by itself is a 200mm lens that focuses to 1:15 - see https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/special/250medical.htm . That means it extends to about 200 * (1 + 1/15) or about 213 mm ~ 8.5 inches. When the 1x aux lens is added, it can focus to 1:1. Because 1:1 is basically symmetrical, that tells us the focal length of the 1x aux lens is about 8.5" (agrees reasonably well with JohnSiskin's table of post-it notes that estimates the 1x lens at 9").

The focal lengths of the other aux lenses should be roughly in the inverse of the printed ratio to the 1x lens, so the 2x lens should be half the focal length of the 1x lens or about 4.25-4.5"; the 1/2x lens should be about twice the focal length of the 1x or 17-18"; and so on.

When combining two of the aux lenses, you can estimate the combined focal length from the usual formula:

1 / f_combined = 1/ f1 + 1 / f2 - d / (f1 * f2)

where d is the length of the airspace between the two lenses. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens#Compound_lenses , where the text says "If two thin lenses are separated in air by some distance d, then the focal length [is given by] ..."

Thanks so much for this. Then the 1/8 would be about 70". Too bad I don't have that much bellows!

JohnSiskin · Dec 13, 2024

I might have been in Estancia, regardless, abandoned house. I used the Burke and James 5x7 camera with the Medical Nikkor elements. The 1/2 behind the shutter and the 1/4 in front for a focal length of about 14 inches. Gives the image a nice feel. Ilford Delta 100 film processed in xtol. Thanks for your attention

Using Medical Nikkor front elements as a casket lens set for large format

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