Using less than total package quantities

Hello all: haven't posted here in awhile; shame on me!

I use five reel (35mm) Kinderman tanks for most of my film processing. I use powdered developer which makes a gallon of stock solution, which I cut 1:1 for use. I find that seldom can I shoot enough film to use up the stock solution before it expires, so I end up throwing out a lot of developer.

I just decided to try and divide the dry powder into several equal portions, and only mixing up enough dry powder to provide the mixed liquid developer I'm going to need in the immediate future. In my 55 years of film photography I have never tried this.

Have any of you tried this? Is it a reliable and controllable process? Can the powder material be effectively divided into homogeneous portions? Etc, etc.

Any comments/opinions/recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Speed Gray, K8SG
Grand Rapids, MI

Yes, I have done it before and had mixed result. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't. Problem is that powdered developers are a mix of different ingredients that most of the time aren't mixed homogeneously, mostly because some of them get settled best that other during storage and shipping.


You may end up (like I suspect I did with a batch of D-76) with a stock solution that is lacking on some ingredient and behave differently than the whole mixed package stock solution. Could suffer over-under developing and probably not, but the point it is not a reliable method for consistent results.

How did I fixed that? moved to liquid developer that could be mixed on demand or (if the photos aren't that critical) used Caffenol so I will mix it on the go.


Best regards

Marcelo

Speed Gray said:

Can the powder material be effectively divided into homogeneous portions? Etc, etc.

Click to expand...

Not easily.
There are a few dozen threads on this idea explaining why it's not a good idea.
(they all also contain posts from people who say they do it all the time with no problems. Take your pick.)

Any good book on quantitative analysis has at least one chapter on how to obtain uniform, representative samples. Pouring powder from a bag is not one of methods described. If you cannot use 2 gallons of developer in six months then I suggest you switch to HC-110 or Rodinal.

Not a good idea. The dry power will settle out with the heaviest constituents toward the bottom and shaking will not get it to mix uniformly.

Gerald C Koch said:

Any good book on quantitative analysis has at least one chapter on how to obtain uniform, representative samples. Pouring powder from a bag is not one of methods described. If you cannot use 2 gallons of developer in six months then I suggest you switch to HC-110 or Rodinal.

Click to expand...

While in college, I had friends, Geology majors who had to take qualitative (not quantitative) analysis. They were issued "unknowns". These people had taken crystaligraphy earlier so they took the unknown and identified the chemical crystals under microscopes. If you can't do the same, I would suggest mixing the complete packages of developer unless you don't figure that your time taking and developing your films is worth anything......Regards!

Not recommended (see reasons in earlier posts).
If the suggestions above for HC-110 and similar aren't to your liking, I'd suggest using X-Tol replenished. Even if you have to throw out half of the replenisher in a 5 litre package (the developer is its own replenisher), you are still wasting very little money, and as long as you are developing film reasonably regularly, your working solution will work virtually forever.

Then there's always the choice to scratch mix your developer when you need and at the quantity you need.

The way to go would be to use the complete powder to make a stock solution, but then fill that into several small glass bottles up to the rim.

Filling and first emptying would be a mess, but can be done with gloves over a bassin, using a glass rod for emptying.
That still would not guarantee longevity, but would exclude effect of aerial oxygen.

I still have a box of 5 litre two packet mix of ID11 and have toyed with the idea of mixing dry and then storing in 5 small containers, I heard the air could very slowly start the deterioration process and then there is the question are the chemicals all proportionally mixed ?. Seems the best option is mix as stated then fill into small individual plastic or glass bottles and use within 6 months. I read that HC110 was developed to resemble closely the same results given by D76.

I often wondered if a much more concentrated stock may last longer.........................

Harry Stevens said:

I still have a box of 5 litre two packet mix of ID11 and have toyed with the idea of mixing dry and then storing in 5 small containers, I heard the air could very slowly start the deterioration process and then there is the question are the chemicals all proportionally mixed ?. Seems the best option is mix as stated then fill into small individual plastic or glass bottles and use within 6 months. I read that HC110 was developed to resemble closely the same results given by D76.

I often wondered if a much more concentrated stock may last longer.........................

Click to expand...

The limiting factor is the sodium sulfite. Perceptol is near the upper limit (125 g/l) . So you would not be able to get much more of the developer to dissolve for a concentrated solution.

I have a similar problem. There are phases in my life where take pictures like insane for a few weeks, and then have a few months with almost no photography at all.
So I don't have (m)any films to develop in these times.

I'm mostly using ID-11. But I found out that the stock solution keeps quite well when put into brown 1l glass bottles (I got them from the local pharmacy store). I'm making 5l stock solution and fill the bottles completely up. In the last bottle, or the bottle which is currently in use I use Tetenal Protectan.

Ilford say that stock solution keeps 6 months. I've recently used up the last parts of my previous ID-11 stock, which was mixed a year ago. I didn't notice any problems with it. After my last move I was using almost two years old stock (took time to setup the darkroom again) of ID-11 and Microphen, and pictures were fine.

I have a similar problems with print developers. I have on and off phases to make prints in the darkroom. I'm using Ilford Multigrade developer. After some time the stock gets brown when kept in the orginal plasic bottle. I'm now also dipping it into these brown glass bottles, with Protectan, and since then the stock doesn't turn brown.

Depending on the chemistry, you can sometimes get away with mixing up only portions of the powder. XTOL for example does NOT work, as some of the components of the developer are present in the powder in such tiny quantities that you're really unlikely to get the right ratios of everything if you mix up, say, half a packet of powder.

I regularly mix up only half of a packet of Kodak Powder Fixer and have never had an issue. Never tried with D-76.

There are a ton of photographers in the same boat as you (myself included) who don't shoot enough volume to justify mixing up an entire gallon of D-76 stock or what have you. That's why I standardized around HC-110 and Rodinal developers, since I can mix up just as much as I need from syrup and develop one-shot. Half a fixer bottle works great for the volume I shoot.

For printing, I mix up the full gallon of Dektol stock solution, but put it into individual bottles that hold just enough stock to make a half gallon of my preferred working dilution of 1:3 at a time. The bottles of stock get double bagged in gallon ziplock bags and I take as much air out as possible, so far they're going on about 6 months with no visible color change and no noticeable difference in performance when I mix them up. The mixed 1:3 solution usually gets thrown out after a couple of days, or I save up enough printing to do in a single day that I come close to exhausting it fully anyway. I suspect a similar system would work well for stock D-76 if you're set on keeping that developer. You just might end up with a lot of very small bottles that make just enough soup for 1-2 rolls of film if you're really determined to not throw away any chemistry before it's used up. Stock solution of just about any chemistry has a pretty long shelf life if you can keep the oxygen out of it (glass containers are your friend), although I haven't used D-76 since my high school days, I can't imagine it's any different.

Anon Ymous said:

Then there's always the choice to scratch mix your developer when you need and at the quantity you need.

Click to expand...

Not a bad option at all. I use rodinal and D23.I make the d23.

I developed some film yesterday in d23 that I made on 11/02 (that's January 11th for you contrarian merrycans).

It's in a half full plastic springwater bottle and has been for several months now. Same colour it was when I made it. Tiny bit of brown oxidation showing where some drops clung on at the top. Keep it under the kitchen sink in a cupboard.

I expect to have used it up by October by my current usage. It'll still be fine then too.

I can't help thinking that for all the threads we have faffing about developer life, and how to prolong it, and what plastic is best or should I use brown glass, shall I buy incredibly expensive argon to exclude the air, migration figures for oxygen through different plastics and on and on ad nauseam ... It lasts longer than we think.

Oh and yes it is very warm and humid and yes I am a bit grumpy today as a result. Shall I just watch Wimbledon instead?

I got some 25 gallon mixes of paper developer that I divided for use, mixed it up one shot quantities. But paper developer is different from film developer (as far as accuracy and desired results anyway). I mix one gallon D-76 and divide the stock solution into glass bottles. Three get filled almost to the very brim. The fourth has a little air space and is the first jug I use. Kodak conservatively estimates a six month shelf life for developer mixed and stored in this fashion, I find it to be a year.

I have a very old bottle of Dektol stock I mixed years ago. Glass soy sauce bottle, piece of Saran wrap under the lid. It's ancient but no discoloration, no precipitation; it LOOKS fine. I have no plans to use it but I haul it out occasionally to marvel at it's longevity.

michael_r said:

Not a good idea.

Click to expand...

I agree why not mix all and then divide the liquid into practical portions, storing them well stoppered in dark bottles?

pdeeh said:

I developed some film yesterday in d23 that I made on 11/02 (that's January 11th for you contrarian merrycans).

Click to expand...

If January is the second month, what comes before it?
(not a contrary merrycan, but rather a pedantic canadyan)

HC-110, Rodinal, PMK, Pyrocat, et al. are liquid concentrates with extremely long shelf lives. You can mix directly from the concentrate the amount you need for a batch. No need to mix powders into stock solutions and wait for them to go bad. Seems like your circumstances require a different developer.

Best,

Doremus

MattKing said:

If January is the second month, what comes before it?
(not a contrary merrycan, but rather a pedantic canadyan)

Click to expand...

tabarnak!

I do it all the time. If all I need is 16oz of working solution I only use enough powder to make just that. Sames goes for liquid concentrates. Been doing it this way for 45 years with no issues.

Speed Gray said:

Hello all: haven't posted here in awhile; shame on me!

I use five reel (35mm) Kinderman tanks for most of my film processing. I use powdered developer which makes a gallon of stock solution, which I cut 1:1 for use. I find that seldom can I shoot enough film to use up the stock solution before it expires, so I end up throwing out a lot of developer.

I just decided to try and divide the dry powder into several equal portions, and only mixing up enough dry powder to provide the mixed liquid developer I'm going to need in the immediate future. In my 55 years of film photography I have never tried this.

Have any of you tried this? Is it a reliable and controllable process? Can the powder material be effectively divided into homogeneous portions? Etc, etc.

Any comments/opinions/recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Speed Gray, K8SG
Grand Rapids, MI

Click to expand...

Yes it works ! It is simple maths.
You have just to divide the powder and mix it again and again.
When you have 80 smal homogenic parts
for example and you mix it in smal parts
here a bit and here a bit against each other is is only a factor of time.
Unless you have a statistical normal distribution with an exactness of over 90%.
And to D-76 this is enough.

with regards

I would not recomand this to exact work
in darkroom. But I noticed no diference
in development - perhaps it was just a case of luck.

A noobie post!
I have in the past divided Lith powder developers (Part A&B) with never a problem.
As a retired pharmacist I cannot see a problem with dividing powders if the powder has been mixed or stirred to become as close to homogeneous as possible (ie. acceptable tolerance).
In my profession I have packed headache powders in paper wrappers from bulk powder mix (many years ago!). All tablets are pressed from a small sample of a large powder mix. All the same principles apply to dividing up 'dry' photo chemicals. Deterioration from oxidation, humidity, etc, are other problems to consider if the original pack has to be opened.

I do this with fixer. I keep a bottle of Artfix powder in the freezer. To fix, I let the bottle come up to room-temperature, shake it very well in various directions, and pour out 9 ml of powder per 100 ml of final solution. At 20C, my clearing-time is about 3-1/2 minutes (which I check every time). This is a cheap and easy way of using powdered fixer one-shot.

Mark Overton

pdeeh said:

tabarnak!

Click to expand...

gesundheit