Using Jobo 2500 tanks by hand.

ChrisC · Apr 10, 2007

I'm fairly sure similar questions have been asked before, but they never seemed to exactly answer my questions.

I'm looking for an easier way to process my 4x5 B&W negs. I've been using trays up til now, but I think the impatience of youth has finally gotten the better of me, and I really can't stand standing in the dark with hands in liquid anymore to the point where I've all but stopped shooting 4x5. So I'm thinking about splashing out on a 2500 tank to do all my dirty work.

The kicker is I'm too poor to afford any of the CPE processing units at the moment, even second hand, so I'm looking do do things by hand (at least for the moment).

Now for the questions. I know doing hand inversion uses alot of chemistry, but there's still nothing stopping me from doing it this way is there? Keeping in mind, using trays I was using around 1L if not more every time, so I really can't see it using any more chemistry. Also with regards to the Jobo roller base, how well would this substitute a CPE machine if I wanted to use less chemistry? Is it worth the cost, or just a waste of time? Or even just spinning the tank in a tank of water similar to the BTZS developing tanks. Are these all acceptible, if slightly more involving techniques?

Thanks a ton in advance.

Bob F. · Apr 10, 2007

I would suggest getting a version of the lid with a cap rather than the cog lid used for the rotary system, (they are interchangeable) but other than that, I would expect any of the scenarios you suggest will work fine, though spinning it by hand in a water bath sounds as bad as shuffling sheets to me .

I have used my 25xx series tanks for semi-stand. I support the lid with my hand as I invert it to make sure the lid does not come flying off...

IIRC, the non-motorized base is reasonably priced (or you could improvise using bits from the hardware store).

Cheers, Bob.

Jim Chinn · Apr 10, 2007

I use a JOBO and 2500 tanks and use them either with hand agitation or semi-stand from time to time. They work just fine for those purposes. I use a rubber lab cork to cap mine, but as Bob said, if you are getting them new buy the tanks designed with a cap.

All that being said, CPE2 units with lift often come up on ebay and I have seen them go for as low as $300 with an assortment of tanks. They really are a great way to process 4x5 and smaller.

Nick Zentena · Apr 10, 2007

My oldest 2500 type tank even has inversion amounts on the side along with the amounts for rotary. The smallest tank actually uses more then 1litre.

I don't know about New Zealand but if you can find a Unicolor or Beseler motorbase I'd choose that over the Jobo one. The only down side is it doesn't work with the smallest tanks [2521] but the 2551 and all the way up to the 2581 are fine. The biggest one [2591??] that is the six reel bottom and the six reel extension requires you to hand balance it or it'll fall off. OTOH it's so big nothing but the biggest ATL processor will even mount it.

For colour prints I used to roll them in a water tub. It got old really quick.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150110694672

That's what I use. Plug it into a Gralab 300 or similar timer and for B&W it's even better then the Jobo processors IMHO. For colour you need to cobble together a tempering bath for the chemicals and wash water.

Some thing similar must be going wanting locally to you.

Rolleiflexible · Apr 10, 2007

I use 2500-series tanks for all my 4x5 negatives (many thousands of them) without a Jobo base. Do not invert them! Roll them. You have three options, worst to best, but all perfectly viable:

1. Roll them back and forth on a countertop or floor.

2. Roll them by hand on a Jobo manual roller base. They cost US$25 and are available new, Jobo part # 1509, B+H inventory # JORB.

3. Roll them on a used Beseler or Chromega or Unicolor motorized roller base -- $25 used at the usual places. Turn it on, sit the Jobo tank on the base and walk away.

Any of these three options is far preferable to inversion. Your development will be even, and you'll use a small fraction of the chemicals.

Sanders

grahamp · Apr 10, 2007

The smallest 2500 series tank for one 5x4 reel does not balance well on the manual roller base in my experience. It is better once the liquid is in and balances the tank lid. But constant manual rotation for around 10 minutes (an arbitray but reasonable development time) takes some discipline. But it will work.

You could bench roll the tank using some thick plywood or blockboard to support just the tank body to get it level.

This is why I still have my ABS inversion 'tanks' for single 5x4 sheets around as well as the CPE-2+. There is no single best option.

Rolleiflexible · Apr 10, 2007

Yes, Graham is right -- if you are using the one-reel tanks, then maybe filling it up and inverting makes sense. My 2500-series tanks are all two-reelers -- they balance well on roller bases and would take far too much developer to use by inversion. Sanders

Mahler_one · Apr 10, 2007

I suggest writing to Fred Newman at The View Camera Store. He can give you much advice about the BTZS tubes, and -if you can find a set used -they might not cost nearly as much as you think. Of course, you will need tempered water-or at least water that remains close to the desired temperature.

Edwin

www.viewcamerastore.com

bdial · Apr 10, 2007

I'm using inversion processing with mine (a single-reel). I switched from rotary to inversion because of problems with uneven development. But it does take a huge amount of chemistry even for one reel. Your mileage may vary.
Try it both ways, and see what suits you. I intend to give rotary another try with a different film and developer combination.

P C Headland · Apr 11, 2007

Chris

You're going to kick yourself, but there's been a couple of CPEs go really cheap on TradeMe recently. One, complete with lift, multiple reels and tanks had a Buy Now price of NZ$100!!

Up till now I have processed my 4x5 and 9x12cm film in a 120 tank using inversion and stand development. For one sheet I just place it in the tank, emulsion side in. Using Rodinal 1+100 (or PC-TEA), and 800ml of liquid, it doesn't work out very expensive. For up to four sheets, I use the "taco method" - bend the sheet, emulsion side in, slip an elastic band over and drop the "taco" in the tank.

I've just bought, or rather my friend in the UK has bouught for me, a Paterson Orbital processor. These use way less chemistry, and can process 4 sheets at a time. They are basically trays with light proof lids. Most comments from users are very positive. You should be able to snag one for under UKP30 off ebay UK if you are patient, or you can buy them from some other sources, but usually they are around the UKP50 mark.

Your other option is to make some tubes. You can buy all the bits you need from the local plumbing supplies. If you want to get really fancy, you can make a light trap, or find some other create way to get the liquids in and out. There are several plans/drawings out there on the net on how to make these.

Lastly, you could try and find a colour print processor/drum. These can be used to process film, and have adjustable sliders. Some even have and cranks, and can often be seen for reasonable prices, especially on ebay UK (shipping is cheaper from the UK too for some reason). With an 8x10 drum and making a divider, you should be able to process 4 sheets at a time.

Good luck.

ChrisC · Apr 12, 2007

P C Headland said:
Chris

You're going to kick yourself, but there's been a couple of CPEs go really cheap on TradeMe recently. One, complete with lift, multiple reels and tanks had a Buy Now price of NZ$100!!

Up till now I have processed my 4x5 and 9x12cm film in a 120 tank using inversion and stand development. For one sheet I just place it in the tank, emulsion side in. Using Rodinal 1+100 (or PC-TEA), and 800ml of liquid, it doesn't work out very expensive. For up to four sheets, I use the "taco method" - bend the sheet, emulsion side in, slip an elastic band over and drop the "taco" in the tank.

I've just bought, or rather my friend in the UK has bouught for me, a Paterson Orbital processor. These use way less chemistry, and can process 4 sheets at a time. They are basically trays with light proof lids. Most comments from users are very positive. You should be able to snag one for under UKP30 off ebay UK if you are patient, or you can buy them from some other sources, but usually they are around the UKP50 mark.

Your other option is to make some tubes. You can buy all the bits you need from the local plumbing supplies. If you want to get really fancy, you can make a light trap, or find some other create way to get the liquids in and out. There are several plans/drawings out there on the net on how to make these.

Lastly, you could try and find a colour print processor/drum. These can be used to process film, and have adjustable sliders. Some even have and cranks, and can often be seen for reasonable prices, especially on ebay UK (shipping is cheaper from the UK too for some reason). With an 8x10 drum and making a divider, you should be able to process 4 sheets at a time.

Good luck.

I actually got into a bidding war with one of the Jobo processors. The reserve was met at $100 so I couldn't let it go for so cheap! I ended up bidding up to 300 then had to pull out.

Those Paterson processors do look quite tempting, although I can get the Jobo tube and reel new for around $100 NZD which is an acceptible price to me, and I need to order a few more things from B&H too.

I originally tried using a Paterson colour print processor to do my negatives, but it scratched my film a little. I might actually go back to it and give it another go to save some money, because in theory it should work. I've thought about making a film slosher too, but I'd still have to stand around in the dark, but I guess I could learn to like it again. This country's quite tricky to find good stuff used, which is unfortunate.

GeorgesGiralt · Apr 12, 2007

Hi !
I use a 2521 and the double size 2551 by hand as you would do with a Paterson 135 tank. Moving the full 2521 is not so difficult, and if you use the 2551 often you can save on the aerobics subscription ...
My version is the tank with magnets and the cap without the gear to attach to the lift. They are perfectly waterproof provided the orange caps are well put.
The single 2509 reel in the 2521 tank use 1.450 l of chemistry to properly cover the reel. Compare with my 1.2 liter Combiplan and yu would never use the Combiplan again.
The double reel use 3.0 liter ... chemistry to cover the two reels.
Honestly, it is perfectly useable in single reel configuration. And the negs are perfect !
If you use (as I do) HC110 or Rodinal, cost is not so bad. Bear in mind that 1.450 l of HC110, even at dilution H, can process more than 6 sheets of film. So if you've a batch to do, get that extra 2509 on Ebay and process the other 6 with the same HC110 working solution you just used....

jstraw · May 15, 2007

Ok, I got some Jobo 2500stuff and I think I figured out a couple of things and I may have a problem. First of all, the kit I bought has two different styles of lids wit it. They're different underneath. One has sort of cone or funnel and the other doesn't.

Both have the cog but I think only one came that way. I have the box that a 1505 cog came in and judging from the instructions for adding the cog, you just press it in place.

I was unable to remove it. I surmise that once snapped in, it has a lip on the inside and is essentially, permanent. I have the red, flexible cap that could be used before the cog was installed. If I could remove the cog, I could use the cap for inversions.

I need to either remove the cog from one of the lids or acquire a new lid without the cog. If I knew which of the lids was the right one to be using, I might be able to cut the cog with a dremel and get it out.

What advice can others offer?

Nick Zentena · May 16, 2007

The funnel is the film lid. The cup is the paper lid. Or is it the other way-) The funnel connects to the centre column when doing film.

Once added you can't remove the cog.

The funnel and cup on the underside should twist out. Fairly easily. Look closely around either and IIRC you'll see three sort of fingers that hold it in place. A 1/4 turn or so will disengage the holders.

If you do larger sheet film a print drum can be used with the cup in place. So if you remove it don't lose it.

GeorgesGiralt · May 16, 2007

Jstraw,
Jobo tanks and parts are highly standardized.
Paper tanks use a bowl in the cap to hold the chemistry before the tank is put horizontal, all tanks take the same bowl.
Film tanks use the funnel which connect to the centre rod for lightproofing. This funnel is the same for all film tanks, being 2500 series or 1500 series.
Reels center core are the same for all film tanks, being it 1500 or 2500 series.
There are two tank caps style, the one of which part number ends in "3" are for use with a lift and have a cog for power driving the rotation. They are difficult to close because the normal cap can't fit.
The other style has a part number ending in "1" and are waterproofed by an orange cap of which there is only one model, for 1500 or 2500 series tanks.
So if you process film in 135/120 or 4x5 size, and papers you will need one 1500 tank with it's reels, and one or a couple 2509 reels to accommodate the 4x5 film. You will use the bottom part of the paper tank and the lid, the funnel and center core of the 1500 tank to make one 2521 tank into witch you will put the 2509 reels.
Have a look at the Jobo analog site for a detailed description of the tanks, reels, and various parts. http://www.jobo.com

jstraw · May 16, 2007

Very helpful guys, thank you.

I have no use for the paper lid, at least not at this time. If I can get the cog out of the film lid, I can use the cap. I don't care if I destroy the cog getting it out so I may do surgery with the dremel. I have nothing to lose. If I destroy the lid or can't get the cog out...either way I'll have to find a film lid with no cog.

I have guts for 12 sheets of 4x5 and two 120 reels but I'm guessing that tank can hold more than two 120 reels.

If I fail in removing the cog, what's the best route for replacing that film lid?

Nick Zentena · May 16, 2007

Leave the cog on. Go and get yourself a rubber stopper that fits the opening.

If you really want to replace the lid watch Ebay for a tank with the right lid. I forget what Jobo charges for a lid but IIRC it's not much less then buying a whole used tank.

jstraw · May 16, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
Leave the cog on. Go and get yourself a rubber stopper that fits the opening.

Duh! :rolleyes:

Thanks, Nick.

schroeg · May 16, 2007

I have been having wonderful luck with a Uniroller and a JOBO 2551 tank. You have to use a bit more chemistry, but the nice slow rotational agitation has done wonders for my pyro development of all formats. Unirollers are cheap and all over Ebay.

jstraw · May 16, 2007

schroeg said:
I have been having wonderful luck with a Uniroller and a JOBO 2551 tank. You have to use a bit more chemistry, but the nice slow rotational agitation has done wonders for my pyro development of all formats. Unirollers are cheap and all over Ebay.

I'm thinking about that but my issue is that for sheet film, I use semi-stand development and for that, the tank would have to sit vertically. I'm probably going to try a Uniroller for roll film at some point.

jstraw · May 24, 2007

I realized that while I have two 4x5 reels for my 2500, I only have two of the black film holders that hold the sheets onto the reels. I need two per reel.

Does anyone know what the part number is for those? I'm going to need to locate another pair.

Nick Zentena · May 25, 2007

Did you buy them used?

Are they both 2509N or is one the older 2509? The older one won't take the inserts.

jstraw · May 25, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
Did you buy them used?

Are they both 2509N or is one the older 2509? The older one won't take the inserts.

I bought them used. How do I tell which I have. I would guess that unless the previous owner bought them separately, that if one has them, the other needs them too. But perhaps they weren't bought at the same time.

Oh, and since there are two pairs of 9x12 holders, I would guess they both take them.

Nick Zentena · May 25, 2007

Dead Link Removed

At the bottom they discuss putting the plates on. I'm guessing the older 2509 lacks the mounting points for the plates.

ic-racer · May 25, 2007

Uniroller and room temp processing

I remember when I was a poor graduate student. I had good results with roll film using a Uniroller base and drum. For B&W processing I decoded the Kodak Darkroom Dataguide wheel with the temperature compensation information. I used a BASIC program on a Commadore 64 computer to calculate the processing time based on the current room temp. Later, when spread sheet software was available, I made up a big spread sheet for times and temps. I would let the chemistry equilibrate at room temp. and use the time compensation for the current room temp. I used that system for over 10 years until I got a CPP2.

Using Jobo 2500 tanks by hand.

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