Using film developer for paper?

[nyoung]

Given that RC print papers are "developer incorporated" in the emulsion and the liquid developer is merely the activator for the incorporated developer, what harm is there if I develop RC paper in HC110 instead of a "paper" developer?

 

[Rick A]

Good question. Try it and report back with the results, don't forget to include pics.

 

[Ian Grant]

RC papers aren't Developer incorporated, some used to be.

Somewhere I have an article about converting used film developer (like D76/ID-11) into a print developer the main component is adding Carbonate to raise the pH.

Ian

 

[MattKing]

Given that RC print papers are "developer incorporated" in the emulsion and the liquid developer is merely the activator for the incorporated developer, what harm is there if I develop RC paper in HC110 instead of a "paper" developer?

RC papers are not developer incorporated. There are no longer any developer incorporated papers available.

All papers may, however, contain trace amounts of chemicals included for the purpose of adjusting speed and contrast. Some of those chemicals will respond slightly to activators - but not generally enough to achieve full blacks and acceptable contrast.

Paper emulsions tend to be much less sensitive than film, and as a result paper developers tend to have to be more active than film developers. Therefore usually a film developer will have to be used at a much higher concentration than normal (for film) in order to produce acceptable results with paper. Which makes them quite expensive.

Some developers (e.g. Dektol) were originally used both for film and paper. That was more common when film was much closer in sensitivity to paper.

 

[Pioneer]

Paper developers were commonly used for film as well but I am not sure about the other way around.

Ansco 130 can be used for both film and paper. It isn't as common as it used to be but it can still be found. Photographers Formulary in Montana has a version.

Dektol can also be used. I believe diluting 1:3 and developing for 3 minutes or diluting 1:7 and developing for 7 minutes will get you some results to start working from.

 

[Xmas]

Rodinal 1:7 to 1:10 ditto

 

[DannL.]

I developed several MGIV prints the other day in D-76. Took a minute or two longer but looked normal (okay).

 

[Gerald C Koch]

At one time some papers used by commercial labs did contain a developing agent usually hydroquinone. However its purpose was not to directly develop the paper but to rather replace some of the hydroquinone in the developer as it was used up. This made replenishment a bit easier as the amount of hydroquinone added was based on the amount of paper passed thru the developer. There was not enough developing agent present in the paper to properly develop a print.

Decades ago such companies as Spirotone sold stabilization processors. The paper for these machines did contain a sufficient amount of developing agent. The machine consisted of two reservoirs. The first contained an alkaline activator bath and the second a stabilizing bath. One fed the exposed paper into a slot on the front of the machine. A series of rollers then passed the paper into the first bath and then into the second bath. The print was developed and stabilized eventually emerged out the back squeegeed and a bit damp. Once the paper was taken into the machine the room lights could be turned on. The prints were only stabilized and would fade after a few months unless properly fixed. But the process was popular for a time.

 

[Ian Grant]

At one time some papers used by commercial labs did contain a developing agent usually hydroquinone. However its purpose was not to directly develop the paper but to rather replace some of the hydroquinone in the developer as it was used up. This made replenishment a bit easier as the amount of hydroquinone added was based on the amount of paper passed thru the developer. There was not enough developing agent present in the paper to properly develop a print.

Decades ago such companies as Spirotone sold stabilization processors. The paper for these machines did contain a sufficient amount of developing agent. The machine consisted of two reservoirs. The first contained an alkaline activator bath and the second a stabilizing bath. One fed the exposed paper into a slot on the front of the machine. A series of rollers then passed the paper into the first bath and then into the second bath. The print was developed and stabilized eventually emerged out the back squeegeed and a bit damp. Once the paper was taken into the machine the room lights could be turned on. The prints were only stabilized and would fade after a few months unless properly fixed. But the process was popular for a time.

I used some Agfa activator/stabiliser paper around 1972 there were boxes of it in a darkroom we took over at University. It wouldn't have developed well in D76/ID-11 as the pH would be too low, but a few seconds in a paper developer.

Years later I was given an Ilfoprint processor, I tried it with the early Ilfospeed paper, I made my own activator which was Hydroxide, sulphite and Bromide and the results were superb, I used Hypam instead of stabiliser and went to a second fixer bath before washing. Ilfospeed II had no developer incorporation so the machine was useless (it was also wearing out).

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

I developed several MGIV prints the other day in D-76. Took a minute or two longer but looked normal (okay).

What dilution did you need and how many prints can be done in say 1L of D-76 compared to 1L of paper developer at say 1+9 which is the usual dilution of the likes of Ilford MG paper developer?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Mick Fagan]

RC papers aren't Developer incorporated, some used to be.

Somewhere I have an article about converting used film developer (like D76/ID-11) into a print developer the main component is adding Carbonate to raise the pH.

Ian

Not so sure about that Ian.

Having difficulty obtaining boxes of 8x10” Ilford Multigrade IV lustre in Melbourne due to all stock virtually being sold out, I picked up some Kentmere VC Select paper as an interim measure. This was in April this year, it is not old stock.

I use a Durst Printo roller transport paper processor, so I know my developing times and temperatures are always reasonably consistent, with the developer bath always at 30ºC ± 0.5ºC

I started my session using Multigrade IV to finish off from the last printing session, and dial in, then ran a test strip with the Kentmere paper. To put it mildly, it was way off the scale and something I wasn’t expecting.

Took me a while to dial in and I started to think this paper must have some developer incorporated it, it just seemed to act like developer incorporated papers I had used quite some years ago.

Being a male I then decided to read the instruction manual after the event, so to speak.

Under PROCESSING. It reads:

“VC Select can be processed in roller transport machines intended for black and white materials or in dishes. The paper contains developing agent but optimum results cannot be obtained from activation process.”

It seems RC multigrade papers are still being manufactured with a developing agent incorporated.

Mick.

Ps: I used activation machines for many years, about the last time I used that process was in the early 2000’s and I only stopped as the machine I myself owned, was rusting out. Fastest way to get a B&W line image I know of, expose and place into the feed in rollers, a damp, but finished print, ready for a camera or paste-up within 20 seconds. The smell on ones fingers at the end of the day, is another story though.

 

[DannL.]

What dilution did you need and how many prints can be done in say 1L of D-76 compared to 1L of paper developer at say 1+9 which is the usual dilution of the likes of Ilford MG paper developer?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I used D-76 stock, and that's what went into the tray. I have more D-76 on hand than Dektol, and I was curious if "in a pinch" I could achieve decent results with the D-76. That's the depth of my experiment at this time. I still want to toss a print (or paper negative) under the microscope to see if there is a decrease in apparent grain.

I recall years ago trying this with another paper, and the final print was brown. Can't recall the paper though.

 

[Ian Grant]

Being a male I then decided to read the instruction manual after the event, so to speak.

Under PROCESSING. It reads:

“VC Select can be processed in roller transport machines intended for black and white materials or in dishes. The paper contains developing agent but optimum results cannot be obtained from activation process.”

It seems RC multigrade papers are still being manufactured with a developing agent incorporated.

Mick.

Ps: I used activation machines for many years, about the last time I used that process was in the early 2000’s and I only stopped as the machine I myself owned, was rusting out. Fastest way to get a B&W line image I know of, expose and place into the feed in rollers, a damp, but finished print, ready for a camera or paste-up within 20 seconds. The smell on ones fingers at the end of the day, is another story though.

That's interesting Mick. The original Ilfosped made no mention of it's ability to be used in the Activator/Stabiliser machines but in fact it worked well although I found I needed to adjust the Activator, so I made up my own and the results were identical to normal processing.

Ian

 

[winger]

When doing Mordançage, there's a re-development step. Elizabeth Opalenik uses all sorts of different developers at this step depending on what she wants - some give different colors. Using HC-110 can sometimes give a rosy-ish color to some areas. In the class, I don't remember all the variations we had available, but several people used two different film developers to redevelop the image and got some very cool, multicolored effects.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks to both DannL and Michael R for answers. My question had a very prosaic purpose which was to try and compare the amount of D76 needed with the amount of a dedicated paper developer such as Ilford MG. It would seem that developers such as Dektol can only be diluted slightly more than D76 and depending on cost might be close to break-even but it looks as of MG developer at 1+9 will be much more economical unless D76 has a much greater print capacity.

Of course if D76 gives a quality to a print that Ilford MG dev cannot match then even if it is more expensive then it might be worthwhile but this would appear to be unlikely unless there is a wealth of experience that suggests otherwise

pentaxuser

 

[Gerald C Koch]

“VC Select can be processed in roller transport machines intended for black and white materials or in dishes. The paper contains developing agent but optimum results cannot be obtained from activation process.”

It seems RC multigrade papers are still being manufactured with a developing agent incorporated.

Kentmere is making the same point that I made in my previous post. The amount of developing agent present is not sufficient to correctly develop a print. It's presence is to provide some replacement developing agent in order to simplify replenishment in commercial machines. Whether this is an advantage to home tray processing is a matter of conjecture.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Kentmere is making the same point that I made in my previous post. The amount of developing agent present is not sufficient to correctly develop a print. It's presence is to provide some replacement developing agent in order to simplify replenishment in commercial machines. Whether this is an advantage to home tray processing is a matter of conjecture.

Gerald, your post made me think a bit about using developer incorporated RC papers. It would seem there is an advantage to be made for the home printer using dishes/trays and a developer incorporated paper.

A problem with home processing is keeping the heat in the solution in coolish weather, one of the reasons I really like using a paper processor, incredible stability of solution temperature, equals very consistent printing. Past experience tells me that any developer incorporated paper works very well in cool temperatures. This will allow a person using a dish/tray to continue developing consistently well, even when the bath temperature is well below what it should be.

Another problem is developer exhaustion with minimal developer solution in a tray, thereby allowing developer exhaustion to rear its head more easily when using trays. Developer incorporated papers seem to be able to keep on going, compared to papers without incorporated developer.

One observation I noted when using this particular batch of Kentmere developer incorporated paper, was very full development of blacks in a fading bath. How this observation occurred was simply because I had used this batch of solution the day before, which was freshly made up Ansco 135 warm tone paper developer at full strength.

The first day of use I had put through a fair amount of paper, but was too tired to finish the job. On the second day I headed to the darkroom, fired things up then dialled the Ilford Multigrade IV paper in and off I went. I then ran out of Ilford paper so switched to the developer incorporated Kentmere paper, you know the rest.

What I didn’t mention, didn’t think it was worth mentioning, was the apparent ability of the developer incorporated paper to keep on working when the bath had gone off through exhaustion.

I ran about 20 sheets of 8x10” Kentmere paper through the bath, which by the way is 2.5 litres. Then I decided to quickly do a 5x7” print of the same negative, but on the Ilford Multigrade IV paper I had plenty of. I couldn’t dial in, in fact I couldn’t get a decent black, the bath had dropped its lunch and that was that.

As a matter of interest, I had a single ½ sheet of the Kentmere paper still in the box, so I changed the settings back to the Kentmere paper and did an exposure, the paper came out with beautiful blacks. Maybe not perfect blacks, but certainly fantastic compared to what was possible with the developer free Ilford Multigrade IV paper. Reasonably good illustration of one of the plusses of developer incorporated paper; I dropped the bath after that.

Some food for thought.

Mick.