Using C41 stabilizer instead of photo flo

Fulkerson

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I sometimes have issues with water marks on my negatives if I use photo flo and regular tap water. So I've gotten used to mixing some wetting agent with deionized water and use that as the final step. In order to not waste a bunch of fine, relatively expensive, purified water with each batch I reuse it. It works well.

I also keep some sort of C41 kit with developer, blix and stabilizer mixed and ready. Since the stabilizer, if I understand things correctly, is just a wetting agent and some extra chemicals for stabilizing the dyes it has occured to me that I should get rid of the photo flo and just use the stabilizer for my B&W and C41 images.

Is there any reason not to? Both my C41 and black and white chemicals fit snuggly into a box in my fridge, except I cannot fit both the mixed stabilizer and the mixed wetting agent solution at the same time.
 

Donald Qualls

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I've been using (and reusing -- like you, I mixed mine with DI water) C-41 Final Rinse for my black and white since I first ordered in my Flexicolor chemicals (last September). As far as I can see, it works fine. I plan to discard the solution and mix fresh when I replace my C-41 bleach and fixer, when the fixer goes past one minute to clear a cubic grain B&W leader.
 

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Helios 1984

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Regarding Stabilizer & Final Rinse.

"It is a mix of Photo Flo and a bacterial / fungal "antibiotic" agent." - Photo Engineer (Ron Mowrey)

 
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Fulkerson

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Thank you for your replies! I have seen the big Stabilizer thread before, but did not find references to B&W.

I did now however and PE recomending not to use color stabilizer for B&W. Sadly there was no explanation as to why:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...on-color-stabilzers.89149/page-6#post-2188198

We will see what I will do. My photos will do not win any prices, and no one is likely to be interested in the negatives but me so maximizing longetivity is not my final goal.
 

Sirius Glass

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foc

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If you are getting drying marks on your negs, then I don't think using stabilizer or C41 final rinse will solve it.
Have you an example of your drying marks?
From what I have seen over the years is that most drying marks are usually caused by insufficient water wash and/or too much wetting agent in the final wash. If you can use filtered water all the better but unless your water quality is very bad, just a good wash and final rinse with a tiny drop of wetting agent. ( I won't even mention squeegees or any other dark arts)
 

MattKing

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I think this may be a problem with terminology.
I believe that PE is saying here not to use the older, formalin containing stabilizer (which was used as a final rinse) with black and white films.
I don't think he was referring to the more modern, no formalin, Final Rinse.
 

nickandre

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OP is right: There's no problem using color stabilizer on B&W. Deionized water is a good trick for reducing water spots, I found the combination to be great.

The one issue is that if you are re-washing older color films, you don't want to use the modern stabilizer without formalin.

Also FYI on long color chemical storage, I found glass bottles filled to the brim to minimize oxidation most effectively without fridge storage. I recall this being the easiest way to mix a decent batch of color chemistry without having it oxidize before I could run through it all.
 

Bikerider

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The stabiliser is designed to sto p fading of the colour dyes in a colour neg and also to help stop the colour emulsion being attacked by fungus. B&W Negative (But not XP2) is silver and is more or less proof against the latter and silver if fixed and washed correctly will not fade. I have negs around 50 years old that are still very printable although there is a bit of physical damage due to the ravages of time.

The time has been altered to read 50 years and not 5 - a simple typo correction.
 
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Donald Qualls

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A correctly archival processed silver image negative ought to last well over a century -- there's theoretical reason to believe they might last multiple centuries if well stored (room temperature and controlled humidity around 30%, no PVC or glassine).

I know of no reason a modern no-formalin C-41 Final Rinse ought to do them any harm, which is why I use it. I wouldn't use a formalin stabilizer on silver image film, if only because there's no sensible reason to expose yourself to the formalin if it's not genuinely necessary (which it isn't, even for color films if made in the 21st century).
 

koraks

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Bikerider said:
I have negs around 5 years old that are still very printable although there is a bit of physical damage due to the ravages of time.
Click to expand...
Things would be pretty bleak if 5 years were already a concern I assume you mean 50? I also have negatives and particularly B&W slides from my father from the 1960s and earlier that are still fine, whereas all color materials from the same era has faded significantly or severely.
 

mshchem

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The only chemistry that still uses formalin is the USA MADE FUJI HUNT E6 CHEMISTRY SOLD IN BULK TO BIG LABS.
THE EU banned the use of formalin as a anti microbial, reformulated the conditioner, now pre bleach and changed the final rinse. The anti fungal is miconazol. Anything Kodak or Fuji in kit form has the EU formula.
Miconazol is used for jock itch and stinky feet, however don't soak your feet in Final Rinse.
 

Donald Qualls

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In C-22 and early C-41, the formalin also served a function in completing the formation of the dyes. Without it, you could get a "leuco" form dye that was very pale, almost white. Since about 2000, color negative films have had this component already in the emulsion, so it's not necessary to post-treat the developed dye image.
 

Bikerider

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Yes I have amended the timespan.
 
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Fulkerson

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Thank you for your answers! I have now used C41 stabilizer on fomapan 100. It has held up several days now, so far so good!
 

MattKing

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Fulkerson said:
Thank you for your answers! I have now used C41 stabilizer on fomapan 100. It has held up several days now, so far so good!
Click to expand...
Is it stabilizer you used, or is it Final Rinse?
 

Sirius Glass

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Old Gregg said:
The most Kafkaesque thread I've seen here for a while.

STABILIZER IS NOT FINAL RINSE.
Click to expand...

No matter how many times some people are told, they do not listen. If they were heard that crunchy peanut butter rubbed on black & white film is a substitute for PhotoFlo, they would use it.
 

Donald Qualls

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Sirius Glass said:
If they were heard that crunchy peanut butter rubbed on black & white film is a substitute for PhotoFlo, they would use it.
Click to expand...

No, that's obviously not the case. You need to use smooth; crunchy will scratch when you squeegee it off.
 

foc

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I think that the use of the word Stabilizer can be misunderstood.
Form a C41 processing point of view, stabilizer was a solution that contained formaldehyde.
Final rinse is a solution that contains an anti fungal agent and a surfactant that will make the film dry evenly and elimate drying spots.
The two above are basically Fotoflo with additives.
Fotoflo is a wetting agent, which decreases water surface tension and so help the film to dry evenly. It is never used in C41
 

Donald Qualls

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The reason for the formaldehyde (formalin, when in water solution) specifically was to complete conversion of the dyes to a permanent form. C-41 dyes still need stabilization, but the stabilizing function is now "baked in" in the emulsion, so no after-process with formalin is required. The only reason we need Final Rinse instead of a simple wetting agent like Photo-Flo is for those anti-bacterial and anti-fungal ingredients.
 
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Fulkerson

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MattKing said:
Is it stabilizer you used, or is it Final Rinse?
Click to expand...

I use the tetenal C41 kit, of which a part of the stabilizer solution is Hexamine.

I don't know the role of the hexamine. But it is used to prevent urinary tract infections and work by decomposing into formaldehyde and ammonium in the acidic environment of urine. At this point it kills bacteria.

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-6821/hiprex-oral/details

EDIT: Added quotation.
 
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koraks

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Fulkerson said:
I don't know the role of the hexamine. But it is used to prevent urinary tract infections and work by decomposing into formaldehyde and ammonium in the acidic environment of urine. At this point it kills bacteria.
Click to expand...
Well, you just described it pretty well. The hexamine creates formaldehyde in situ, which prevents bacterial/fungal growth and stabilizes the dyes. The dye part of course only applies to chromogenic films; for silver image b&w there's only the fungicide function that's somewhat relevant.
 
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