Using Below-strength fixer

hughitb · Nov 8, 2009

Suppose I have only a small amount of Ilford Rapid Fixer, need to process some film, and have no time to go and get more. Can you use fixer at a much lower dilution than recommended and compensate by leaving the film in it for longer? Say it is 1:16 instead of 1:4 and I fix for 20 minutes instead of 5 ... is this just asking for trouble?

Photo Engineer · Nov 8, 2009

You risk having salts and complexes of silver retained in the film. Dillute fixer is less able to carry the salts and complexes out of the film in an easy fashion. It might work, but you would not be sure of the results unless you tested for retained silver.

Also, the fixer would exhaust more rapidly.

PE

Anon Ymous · Nov 8, 2009

Probably not if you leave it long enough and you can always do a leader test. If you also have some selenium toner, you can check for proper fixation. Do the leader test before trying your luck with the rest of the film. After fixation and wash, dilute 1 part of selenium toner with 9 parts of water. Put a drop on the fixed leader and let it there for 2-3 minutes. Wipe/wash and check if you can see a spot. It should be at most barely visible.

Mike1234 · Nov 8, 2009

It's common practice to use a two step fixer... the first one is old followed by fresh hypo in the second bath. This will double your usable fixer life though the first (old) bath will have a LOT of silver in it.

Harry Lime · Nov 8, 2009

I'm in the same boat. Three days ago I developed 4 rolls (Tri-X 400 / 135) and didn't realize that my fixer had exhausted itself. Normally I test it with some fixer tester, but I forgot this time.

The negs came out normal looking except for a noticeable pink cast. Now I'm debating f I should refix them for a few minutes in fresh fixer... The pink cast doesn't really bother me, but I am worried about long term stability. There are a few real winners on these rolls and I don't want them to go south a few years down the road.

Any advice?

Thanks

PS: I don't have any selenium toner to test the negs as mentioned above

clayne · Nov 8, 2009

Harry Lime said:
I'm in the same boat. Three days ago I developed 4 rolls (Tri-X 400 / 135) and didn't realize that my fixer had exhausted itself. Normally I test it with some fixer tester, but I forgot this time.

The negs came out normal looking except for a noticeable pink cast. Now I'm debating f I should refix them for a few minutes in fresh fixer... The pink cast doesn't really bother me, but I am worried about long term stability. There are a few real winners on these rolls and I don't want them to go south a few years down the road.

Any advice?

Thanks

PS: I don't have any selenium toner to test the negs as mentioned above

PF sell a simple pre-mixed liquid to test for residual hypo in paper and film. Takes 2 minutes on an off-cut. Freestyle sells it.

Now, here's the bad news: you should refix this film. Your gut is telling you you'll be sorry - and listen to it. If you already cut the film, it's going to be a pain in the ass. If you didn't cut the film, then it's easy as pie.

RalphLambrecht · Nov 8, 2009

Harry Lime said:
I'm in the same boat. Three days ago I developed 4 rolls (Tri-X 400 / 135) and didn't realize that my fixer had exhausted itself. Normally I test it with some fixer tester, but I forgot this time.

The negs came out normal looking except for a noticeable pink cast. Now I'm debating f I should refix them for a few minutes in fresh fixer... The pink cast doesn't really bother me, but I am worried about long term stability. There are a few real winners on these rolls and I don't want them to go south a few years down the road.

Any advice?

Thanks

PS: I don't have any selenium toner to test the negs as mentioned above

Refix them!

JBrunner · Nov 8, 2009

hughitb said:
Suppose I have only a small amount of Ilford Rapid Fixer, need to process some film, and have no time to go and get more. Can you use fixer at a much lower dilution than recommended and compensate by leaving the film in it for longer? Say it is 1:16 instead of 1:4 and I fix for 20 minutes instead of 5 ... is this just asking for trouble?

If you are in a hurry, you can, but re-fix the negs properly as soon as possible.

dancqu · Nov 8, 2009

hughitb said:
Suppose I have only a small amount of Ilford Rapid Fixer,
need to process some film, and have no time to go and get
more. Can you use fixer at a much lower dilution than
recommended and compensate by leaving the film
in it for longer?

Within some reasonable bounds dilution is not a limiting
factor. I've put several rolls of 120 through at a 1:32
dilution; 15ml of concentrate and a 500ml solution
volume. As the concentrate aged I reduced the
dilution to 1:24; 20ml of concentrate.

I suggest 20ml of good concentrate in what ever solution
volume needed. That volume will determine the dilution.

Doing a roll at a time in about 500ml? Allow 10 minutes
with a few inversions each minute. Check for clear then
give it another 2-3-4 minutes.

I routinely use fixers very dilute, one-shot,
film and paper. Dan

trexx · Nov 8, 2009

dancqu said:
Within some reasonable bounds dilution is not a limiting
factor. I've put several rolls of 120 through at a 1:32
dilution; 15ml of concentrate and a 500ml solution
volume. As the concentrate aged I reduced the
dilution to 1:24; 20ml of concentrate.

I suggest 20ml of good concentrate in what ever solution
volume needed. That volume will determine the dilution.

Doing a roll at a time in about 500ml? Allow 10 minutes
with a few inversions each minute. Check for clear then
give it another 2-3-4 minutes.

I routinely use fixers very dilute, one-shot,
film and paper. Dan

This is a very dangerous suggestion. Dan I am glad you have had success with this, but I have found this the path to ruined negatives. No matter how much time in this diluted fixer salts and complexes of silver are retained in the film. My testing has shown degraded negatives in a very short time.

To the OP you can fix diluted one night and refix in fresh full strength in a few days and should be OK .

Photo Engineer · Nov 8, 2009

I agree that this suggestion is dangerous. Mees suggests that a certain amount of hypo must be in the solution and free of silver complexes to be able to finish the fixing task. My years of research into fixers is summarized in my first post here. Ignore it if you wish, but don't e-mail or PM me if your film or prints turn brown or take on funny colors with time.

PE

Harry Lime · Nov 9, 2009

clayne said:
Now, here's the bad news: you should refix this film. Your gut is telling you you'll be sorry - and listen to it. If you already cut the film, it's going to be a pain in the ass. If you didn't cut the film, then it's easy as pie.

Thanks everyone.

You're right. The alarm bells have been ringing in the back of my head all weekend long. Luckily I haven't cut the negs yet, for exactly this reason. I'll take care of it tonight.

I figure 3-5 minutes in fresh fixer should do the trick? I don't want to end up over-fixing in the rush to save them. They were in the depleted fixer for about 7 minutes the first time around.

hughitb · Nov 9, 2009

Thanks for all the excellent advice. In summary, the gist seems to be that you can do it, but it's risky. At the very least the film should be re-fixed within a few days.

I think I am going to bite the bullet and hop in the car and go out and buy some more fixer ...

dancqu · Nov 9, 2009

trexx said:
This is a very dangerous suggestion. Dan I am glad you have
had success with this, but I have found this the path to ruined
negatives. No matter how much time in this diluted fixer salts
and complexes of silver are retained in the film. My testing
has shown degraded negatives in a very short time.

To the OP you can fix diluted one night and refix in fresh full
strength in a few days and should be OK .

I think not dangerous at all. In fact a film fixed using a one-
shot fixer is much cleaner out of the fixer than a film from
a fixer which has been repeatedly used. There is another
margin of safety in that the fixer is Fresh, Unused.

I've dozens even scores of rolls of clean colorless negatives,
some from several years ago. The amount of concentrate,
or solid in the case of sodium thiosulfate, needed was
determined years ago via a series tests.

I suspect some wishing to use less than full strength fixer
confuse 'dilution' with the amount of concentrate needed
to Thoroughly fix the film. I made plain in my previous
post that the dilution will vary according to the amount
of concentrate needed and the solution volume.

I should mention that the amount of concentrate
suggested may not do for iodized film. Dan

Photo Engineer · Nov 9, 2009

Dan;

I agree that a one shot fixer is always best. I also agree that it is not always possible for every user. I also restate my observations that dilute fixes can cause problems.

PE

scinysnaps · Dec 13, 2009

Just how long can one keep a 1:4 dilution of Ilford Rapid Fix?

Using Below-strength fixer

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