using a tank, one or two reels

jaimeb82 · Aug 21, 2009

Last night I developed my first film ever. Xtol, washed with water, ilford rapid fixer, wash again, and photo-flo. I used an expired Delta100 (2003). The result? only a few frames came out well developed. The rest of the film strip came out with stains that look like bleach, no signs of image at all.

I used a small steel tank with capacity for two 35mm reels or one 120. I only put in one reel. Was I supposed to put one reel with the film and the other reel as a spacer?

I have another few questions but one step at the time.

Valerie · Aug 21, 2009

Yes, put in 2 reels. The one with film goes on the bottom. The other reel keeps the first one in place. But I'm not sure that is what affected your film--can you scan the problem negs so we can see them?

msage · Aug 21, 2009

jaimeb82 said:
Last night I developed my first film ever. Xtol, washed with water, ilford rapid fixer, wash again, and photo-flo. I used an expired Delta100 (2003). The result? only a few frames came out well developed. The rest of the film strip came out with stains that look like bleach, no signs of image at all.

I used a small steel tank with capacity for two 35mm reels or one 120. I only put in one reel. Was I supposed to put one reel with the film and the other reel as a spacer?

I have another few questions but one step at the time.

I always use a spacer reel. Not seeing the "stains" it is hard to tell what happened, but I don't think not having the second reel is the problem. More likely the film was not on the reel correctly, the old film or incorrect camera exposure. Can you post a few frames?
Michael

DutchShooter · Aug 21, 2009

If some shots are well developed, not having a spacer reel in the tank should not have been the problem...posting some scans/photos of the negatives will probably help!

Sirius Glass · Aug 21, 2009

Two reels for developing in a two reel tank, even if one reel is empty. The list of problems that can come from only using one reel in a two reel tank are longer than I want to list.

This applies to a two reel 35mm tank and a two reel 120 tank. Any multireel tank needs empty reels for the best result processing.

Yes, you do not have to do this, but why take risks on your photos. The extra volume of chemistry is just there for the ride.

Steve

Paul Sorensen · Aug 21, 2009

If you used only enough chemistry for one reel and had only one in there, then there is a possibility that the reel could have been suspended up above the developer at times, although I doubt it with a steel tank. (This is a real problem with Paterson tanks, and I have seen it numerous times with students) As others have said, for the best most consistent results, put the empty reel in and use enough chemistry for both reels.

I am curious about whether you might have had film touching in the reel. In that case, there will be sections that are fine, but also sections where the film was touching and some of the film did not develop at all. I suggest you waste a roll, load it up just like this one and then turn the lights on to inspect it. Do this a bunch of times till you are always getting the film on correctly, then do it all again. I have seen film from students that sounds like what you describe, and it was an issue with improperly loaded film that was touching.

alexmacphee · Aug 21, 2009

I am surprised that this would be a problem with Paterson tanks. I've used my System 4 Paterson tanks since they were introduced in 1968 or 69. There is a white 'circlip' which is fitted to the spindle that holds the reel, so that the reel does not slide up the spindle during development when one reel is in a tank that holds more than one reel. In four decades and with several tanks processing many hundreds of films, I have never had a problem attributable to this.

clayne · Aug 21, 2009

The staining issue is not related to 1 or 2 reels in the tank. It's completely related to mis-loading the reel (film was touching itself).

alexmacphee · Aug 21, 2009

clayne said:
It's completely related to mis-loading the reel (film was touching itself).

That sounds plausible. In my early days, the biggest problem I had was learning how to engage the film leader into the spiral. The warmer the inside of the changing bag, the more difficult it became, and rotating the reel sometimes caused the film to 'pop' out of the grooves. And of course the more one had this problem, the longer the film was in the changing bag with your hands, and the warmer the inside of the changing bag became...

Sirius Glass · Aug 21, 2009

alexmacphee said:
That sounds plausible. In my early days, the biggest problem I had was learning how to engage the film leader into the spiral. The warmer the inside of the changing bag, the more difficult it became, and rotating the reel sometimes caused the film to 'pop' out of the grooves. And of course the more one had this problem, the longer the film was in the changing bag with your hands, and the warmer the inside of the changing bag became...

When that happens, take your hands out of the changing bag and walk away from it for a while. [Tuck the changing bag arms to keep light from getting in.] When you come back to the changing bag, your hands will not be sweaty and hot, the changing bag will be cooler inside, and it will be easier to load the reel.

By the way, instead of a changing bag which can just hold a 35mm camera that needs film removed in the dark [or loading/unloading HIE], I have a changing room bag which in much larger and easier to load the film on the reels.

Steve

clayne · Aug 21, 2009

Sirius Glass said:
When that happens, take your hands out of the changing bag and walk away from it for a while. [Tuck the changing bag arms to keep light from getting in.]

Another way I've found for protecting the film from light while pausing to do something else or just take a break is to put it under/inside the tank with the tank upside down.

One can also do this for those times when the tank cap is accidentally left outside the bag.

Sirius Glass · Aug 21, 2009

I have done that too.

Some times taking a time out is a good idea.

Steve

jaimeb82 · Aug 21, 2009

here is a picture of the film look:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/flaseando/3843842358/

I think I got cheap reels and I've been practicing for one hour sacrificing one of my films and the damm thing doesn't want to get into the reel in a circular way. It is really annoying because I am traveling and don't have access to buy a better reel and tank.

Should I keep practicing, is the film supposed to cover the whole reel diameter?

Sirius Glass · Aug 21, 2009

Jaime,

Use Hewes reels. There is a difference and to price is worth it.

Steve

Paul Sorensen · Aug 21, 2009

alexmacphee said:
I am surprised that this would be a problem with Paterson tanks. I've used my System 4 Paterson tanks since they were introduced in 1968 or 69. There is a white 'circlip' which is fitted to the spindle that holds the reel, so that the reel does not slide up the spindle during development when one reel is in a tank that holds more than one reel. In four decades and with several tanks processing many hundreds of films, I have never had a problem attributable to this.

If you are in a group darkroom, such as the school where I was teaching, you immediately lose such small items. We used empty reels to accomplish the same goal, except that a student would occasionally fail to do so and, once in a while, the problem would happen. I do not think this is an issue with Paterson, I think this is an issue with user error.

Paul Sorensen · Aug 21, 2009

jaimeb82 said:
here is a picture of the film look:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/flaseando/3843842358/

I think I got cheap reels and I've been practicing for one hour sacrificing one of my films and the damm thing doesn't want to get into the reel in a circular way. It is really annoying because I am traveling and don't have access to buy a better reel and tank.

Should I keep practicing, is the film supposed to cover the whole reel diameter?

Sure looks to me like an issue with the film touching. I agree that Hewes reels are great. For 35mm I use Paterson and never have this issue either. I had one steel reel for 120 that I just can't get the film in to properly to save my life, but I would never be able to tell from the look of it, it looks like all my other reels, but it just totally sucks. I just tossed the reel, since it seemed hopeless.

I would guess that 36 exposure rolls should just about fill the reel, but someone who uses steel for 35mm would be a better source. I use steel for 120 and the rolls fill the reels pretty much completely.

clayne · Aug 21, 2009

The problem with the generic reels is that they come pre-bent from the Chinese factory and have thin wiring - resulting in film popping out much more commonly.

I cannot stress how important Hewes reels are. Absolutely quality product with no fiddling around.

2Bugles · Aug 21, 2009

Other reels worth looking at are made by Samigon. They're plastic and less expensive than Hewes and work great. I threw out all my Patterson reels, replacing them with the Samigons.

MattKing · Aug 21, 2009

jaimeb82 said:
here is a picture of the film look:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/flaseando/3843842358/

I think I got cheap reels and I've been practicing for one hour sacrificing one of my films and the damm thing doesn't want to get into the reel in a circular way. It is really annoying because I am traveling and don't have access to buy a better reel and tank.

Should I keep practicing, is the film supposed to cover the whole reel diameter?

Find a closet that is dark enough.

There are two problems with changing bags:

1) they are warm, and humidity builds up; and
2) you cannot hear the film as you load.

As film loads correctly on to a steel reel, it makes an identifiable sound. In contrast, when the film goes on crooked, it makes a different and equally identifiable sound.

There also is a distinct feel to the film as you advance it on to the reel, and gently push and pull it slightly, to check whether it is going on correctly.

I've a little different perspective on steel reels and 35mm - I've successfully loaded lots of cheap reels. The advantage of the more expensive Hewes reels is that they really do help in starting the film on correctly, but there are other techniques that also work well.

Practice in the light first, and pay special attention to how it sounds and feels.

Matt

clayne · Aug 21, 2009

MattKing said:
Find a closet that is dark enough.

There are two problems with changing bags:

1) they are warm, and humidity builds up; and
2) you cannot hear the film as you load.

As film loads correctly on to a steel reel, it makes an identifiable sound. In contrast, when the film goes on crooked, it makes a different and equally identifiable sound.

Agreed about the sound differences, although I can hear sound threw my bag fairly easily.

There also is a distinct feel to the film as you advance it on to the reel, and gently push and pull it slightly, to check whether it is going on correctly.

This is another advantage of Hewes, you usually don't have to even bother and can check it at the end (finger swipe down edge of reels).

I've a little different perspective on steel reels and 35mm - I've successfully loaded lots of cheap reels. The advantage of the more expensive Hewes reels is that they really do help in starting the film on correctly, but there are other techniques that also work well.

Sure it's usually best to try and figure out how to work with what you have - nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day though - the cheap reels are just wasting people's valuable time (and in tragic cases: their images). The other advantage with the Hewes is that the reels are thicker and generally the film will never jump a reel or otherwise slip. I'd rather support a quality manufacturer than reward companies who cheap out.

jaimeb82 · Aug 22, 2009

I've been practicing for hours until the film was broken at some parts. I didn't get the feeling the film was right in any of the intents. I took 36 pictures of random boring staff and went to try my second developing. There is no way to now if film is in the right position when inserted into the reel, I knew it wasn't right but felt a bit more even than other times. I got 26 frames out of 36. Not bad, but not enough. It is amazing the feeling of satisfaction one gets when you see your negatives come out of the tank. I think I am going to like this. Can't wait to get back to the States and buy the right reels!

Cheers to all!

bdial · Aug 22, 2009

As you are loading, midway through the roll, count the number of spirals on each side from the film out. If the number is the same then the film is likely ok at that point. Wind a little further and repeat. If you get a different number, then unwind it a bit and try again.
On problem is that once the film is kinked somewhere, it's more likely to bend at that spot again, and sometimes the edges get bent enough that they won't go on straight no matter what. If that happens, take the film off the reel and try from the other end.

Sirius Glass · Aug 22, 2009

With metal reels, if you can feel the edge of the film between the spirals, then the film is not wound correctly.

When you run your fingers around the wound portion, does it feel smooth and even. If not unwind some of the film from the reel and try again.

Steve

MattKing · Aug 23, 2009

Jaime:

Advance the film slowly, in small increments (an inch or so). After each increment, pull and push it slightly. If it slides in and out without binding, that increment has been properly loaded. If it binds, you need to pull out that increment and re-try.

With a discard roll, do this first 100 times in the light, while watching. In that way, you can begin to associate the feel and sound of properly loaded film.

Then do it another 100 times in the light, but with your eyes closed.

You will find that your success rate will go up, when you are able to keep everything aligned as you work.

This is so much harder to explain than to show!!!

Matt

Sirius Glass · Aug 23, 2009

MattKing said:
Jaime:

Advance the film slowly, in small increments (an inch or so). After each increment, pull and push it slightly. If it slides in and out without binding, that increment has been properly loaded. If it binds, you need to pull out that increment and re-try.

With a discard roll, do this first 100 times in the light, while watching. In that way, you can begin to associate the feel and sound of properly loaded film.

Then do it another 100 times in the light, but with your eyes closed.

You will find that your success rate will go up, when you are able to keep everything aligned as you work.

This is so much harder to explain than to show!!!

Matt

Film processing boot camp.

Steve

using a tank, one or two reels

jaimeb82

Valerie

msage

DutchShooter

Sirius Glass

Paul Sorensen

alexmacphee

clayne

alexmacphee

Sirius Glass

clayne

Sirius Glass

jaimeb82

Sirius Glass

Paul Sorensen

Paul Sorensen

clayne

2Bugles

MattKing

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clayne

jaimeb82

bdial

Sirius Glass

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