Using a Red Dot Artar on a Canham-worth it?

Mahler_one

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One of the interesting things to do with view cameras is to use older lenses and compare the results with those achieved with the newer formulated and manufactured view camera lenses. Some time back I asked the late and lamented Steve Grimes to mount a pristine Red Dot Artar, 10 3/4 inch, into an appropriate Copal shutter. Having just recently purchased one of Keith Canham's metal 4x5 cameras, I asked the cooperative and skilled people who have taken over for Steve ( Adam, Lauren, and the staf ) to mount the Artar and shutter into the appropriate Canham board. Turns out the the costs are nothing to be sneezed at. With Artars one evidently often needs a custom mounting flange ( about 6-8 week wait ), a Canham board that has to be custom cut, and appropriate labor. So, with the lens, shutter, Steve's previous work ( he had to use a custom ring to mount the lens in a shutter-evidently Artars also need some special rings to be mounted in a Copal ), and now Adam's necessary efforts...well, let's say the costs are probably more then a brand new Fujinon C 300 would have been.

What's the point? Well, one really wonders if these compact Artars are "as good as" the compact Fujinon lenses. One realizes of course that "good" has a definition that is very much subjective when it comes to speaking about camera lenses ( other then the objective tests utilizing various graphs ). Have any of our more experienced members had the opportunity to compare this particular Artar with the compact Fujinon ( obviously the Fujinon is just a bit longer ), or indeed with any of the modern lenses? One can still find Red Dot Artars at what appears to be a "reasonable price", but after mounting the lenses in a shutter, etc. -well, the price does add up. I'll be using black and white film almost exclusively.

Edwin
 

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Personally, I've been replacing alot of my more modern lenses, like the Fujinon and Nikkor with older lenses of the same focal length like Red Dot Artar's and Dagor's.

Personally, I find the older lenses to produce a more beautiful range of tones, which can mostly be noticed in the highlights. I feel that the Dagor and Artar lenses produce a beautiful richness of tones that newer modern lenses do not. The Nikkor and Fujinon were great lenses, but were really almost TOO sharp and produced harsher highlights that would not print with as much richness and separation as the older lenses.

I still have a Nikkor-M 450mm that I hope to replace with a RD Artar or Dagor mounted in a new Copal shutter. All my other lenses are now Dagors and RD Artars.
 

Nick Zentena

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Aren't both the compact Fuji and the Nikon M tessars? Outside of the coating how modern really is either?
 

Ole

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"Tessar" only means the basic construction is four elements in three groups; a cemented pair on one side of the aperture and an air-spaced pair on the other side. There are many versions, with very different properties. Even the Carl Zeiss Tessars have gone through several refinements and recalculation, and were also made (and designed) for several different applications.

My solution to lack of lens boards is to use a Universal Iris lens mount. They are expensive, but not compared to 20 different lens boards for 6 different cameras...
 

jmdavis

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Edwin,

The value completely depends on how much you like the lens. I recently bought a Wehman 8x10. My 8x10 lenses are a 240 Germinar (Dr. Optick) and a 14" Commercial Ektar on Deerdorf boards. The Wehman came with lens three boards and one adapter board (to use Canham boards). I took one of the lens boards (the one for an Ilex 4) and used a circle cutter to enlarge the mounting hole. I then removed the Ektar flange from the Deerdorf board and mounted it to the Wehman board. Voila, I could use the lens on the Wehman.

If you already have the Artar in a copal shutter, you should be able to fit it onto the Canham board. Are you sure that Adam realized that the lens is already in a Copal instead of being in an Ilex or other older shutter that used a flange rather than a retaining ring? I'm guessing that the lens is in a Copal 3 and it is no problem to order a copal 3 board from Canham or others.
 

darinwc

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"Turns out the the costs are nothing to be sneezed at. With Artars one evidently often needs a custom mounting flange ( about 6-8 week wait ), a Canham board that has to be custom cut, and appropriate labor."

Why would an artar need a custom flange mounting once it was in a standard shutter? Ditto on the custom lensboard?
 
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Mahler_one

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Sorry, but I can't answer the question. Only repeating what Lauren stated.

EM
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Yes, I have the same question as darinwc and jmdavis. Maybe Lauren didn't realize quite what the situation is.

A 10 3/4" Artar shouldn't be a huge lens requiring any special gymnastics to fit it into a modern shutter--just a pair of straightforward adapter rings. Unless he had to do something very unusual to the outside thread of the rear flange of the shutter itself, it should fit a standard lensboard. If it were a barrel lens, it would need a custom flange, or if it were in an older shutter, like an Ilex 3 or 4, it would require a less common flange, but they are common enough that they probably have them in stock (www.mpex.com also stocks them).
 
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Mahler_one

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Thanks David. I questionned Lauren as best I could. I believe something indeed had to be done to the outside thread of the rear flange of the shutter for that was where that custom made ring was placed. As you guessed David, it was indeed in a barrel before being placed into the Copal ( Did I understand your comment correctly?). However, thanks to all of the suggestions received here I will indeed call Lauren and Adam tomorrow to ascertain if a less costly alternative is possible.

Comments as to the quality of this RDA lens?

Another quick question: I have no plans to change, but are there other artisans who do work similar to that done by the Grimes organization?

Edwin
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Almost.

If you wanted to mount the lens in the original barrel on a lensboard without a shutter, that would likely require a custom flange.

It seems very unlikely that they would have to modify the outer thread of the rear flange of a Copal shutter to mount this lens, so I suspect as the others do that there was simply some misunderstanding, and that it should work in a standard lensboard with the regular retaining ring for that shutter. One possibility, however, is that the rear flange of the shutter was too long for the correct element spacing, so maybe it had to be shortened. This wouldn't change the thread or diameter of the retaining ring or mounting flange, but it might require a thin retaining ring so as not to interfere with the rear cell. Or maybe darinwc is right, and it's a tighter fit than most of us realize, and required a more complex solution.
 

Curt

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I have a 10 3/4" Red Dot Artar that is a barrel lens. What I did was front mount it directly in a Alphax shutter. The barrel screwed directly into the shutter with no adapters. The shutter was new and didn't have an aperture scale but I used the aperture in the barrel anyway. The lens and shutter were bought separately and were very inexpensive. To mount in a Copal it would be an mission of money.
 

Curt

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Scott, I have two 16 1/2" RD Artar lenses, on is a barrel and one is in an Ilex #4 shutter. The lens in the Ilex has custom rings that the elements are mounted in. What shutter is a direct fit for the 16 1/2" Artar without shims or rings?

Curt
 
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Mahler_one

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Just spoke with Lauren...the interesting problem is that many Artars are different from each other, and there was no standardization. Some might indeed easily fit into a Copal shutter, others not. To mount my RDA into the Copal required machining a adaptor to go over the Copal mounting threads, thus changing the diameter of the mounting threads and making the entire package of lens and shutter no longer "standard". Geesh....I would rather be back doing surgery....at least there I understood what was going on....:}

Thanks to everyone who tried to help. Much appreciated. I think the lesson to be taken away is that Artar lenses might often need custom mounting to shutters, and such mounting then makes mounting to lens boards more difficult.

Edwin

Edwin
 

John Kasaian

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IMHO Artars, RD or APO, are fine lenses. I have a 19" RD on the 8x10 and a
12" APO on the 5x7---they are among my favorite lenses. Lauren is correct in that Artars aren't standardized when it comes to the threads. Whether or not the expense of machining one is worth it (to you) is a question only you can answer. Equinox Photo has a collection of old flanges quite reasonably priced and will fit one to your lens if you send the lens to them (providing they have one that will fit!) and that might be an option worth considering. It'll cost you the postage to find out anyway.
Good luck!
 
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