Using a cheap auto flash for fill?

non sequiteur

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Just trying to remember things; if I have an old cheap autflash on my camera with recommended exposure f/8, then if I use it outdoors with a 1/125 exposure time and f/11 aperture (as recommended by the cameras meter) I would get sort of 1 f-stop fill flash, right? Just want to lighten up shadows sometimes without schlepping around norman 200b:s and flash meter and what have you. I understand that the stars must be in alignment for the old thyristor thingy to actually fire of a flash that equals an exposure at f/8, but in theory, that would work at least?
 

Ian C

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The idea of fill flash is almost always to produce a fill flash that is less than that of the film speed to fill in shadows and provide a sparkle in the eyes of a portrait subject without overwhelming the ambient light portion of the exposure.

If you need to fine-tune the sensor-auto flash output, simply adjust the film-speed setting on the flash.

Example: With ASA 100 film in the camera and the meter set to ASA 100, the shutter set to 1/125 second (assuming that’s within the shutter’s synchronization), and f/8 set on the lens aperture, set the film speed on the flash to ASA 200. Then the flash portion of the exposure will produce approximately the correct amount of light for an ASA 200 exposure. This is refereed to as a minus one-stop fill.

Since the film speed sequence on the flash is in 1/3rd-stop increments, you can set the flash to produce minus 1/3, 2/3, 1, 4/3, 5/3, . . . stop fills as wanted.
 

Chan Tran

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Not all the auto flashes work that way. Most when you change the ISO the f/stop changes in a way that the flash would work exactly the same.
 
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non sequiteur

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See my reply to chan tran
 

MattKing

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Don't adjust the flash - it will put out the amount of light that its sensor is set for.
Adjust the camera aperture instead.
If the flash is set to give full exposure for a camera aperture set to, as an example, f/8, set the camera to f/11 instead, along with the correct shutter speed to give you good, ambient light, non-flash exposure at f/11.
I think of that combination in terms of how much less than full exposure is coming from the flash - as being a "1 stop fill" - but you should remember it the way that makes sense to you.
If that is too much fill for your taste, try a "2 stop fill" - flash still set for an f/8 full exposure, but camera aperture set to f/16, with corresponding adjustment to the shutter speed.
You can fine tune it even closer if your flash and/or your camera gives you the ability to make half stop adjustments.
One thing to be careful of - this is relatively easy to do with leaf shutters that offer flash synch at all shutter speeds, but with focal plane shutters you are constrained as to available shutter speed options.
 

Doremus Scudder

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Yep, use the flash at a fixed power setting and adjust camera shutter speed (if possible with synch) and aperture to compensate. A leaf shutter synchs at all speeds, focal-plane shutters need 1/125 or slower, so you'll have to do some figuring. ND filters over the flash can help (or colored gels if you want to get creative ).

Doremus
 

Chan Tran

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A number of flashes which are not new and not too old the ones that were released around the turn of the century have capability to adjust the auto flash aperture in a wide range and in 1/3 stop incrememts and these are the good one for auto fill flash. The new ones tend to not have the auto mode (only TTL) and the old ones only give you choice of 2 or 3 apertures. Some only has one choice of aperture.
 

ic-racer

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There are a thousand ways to illuminate a scene with flash.

What I do with my fill flashes is to use the manual mode "Flash Output" function and a flash meter to adjust the fill and main. Standard values like 2:1, 3:1 and 4:1 usually are fine.

If not familiar with "2:1" it means to set the fill flash output so that the meter reads one stop less exposure than the main light when each light is triggered individually. With hot lights, one would move them back and forth. With flash, one can use the "Flash Output" control.



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A while back I received two nice Metz flashes that were included with another purchase (50 AF-1 and 48 AF-1). The flashes have no Auto mode sensor and only are TTL with an Olympus Digital cameras. The only way to use the flashes with other cameras is Manual mode. Anyway, I'm setting up a large...
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MattKing

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FWIW, both my Metz 60CT flashes and my Olympus T series flashes work great with auto flash in fill flash applications.
 
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non sequiteur

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Chan Tran said:
So which model of the flash you have? Many of the flashes I have you either have no choice or the choices are 2 stops apart which makes it's very difficult to fine tune the amount of fill.
Click to expand...

I have several. I tend to use an old nikon sb-15 a lot for on camera flash. Then I have more professional studio equipment, but seldom use it unfortunately
 
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non sequiteur

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Hi, yeah, I have a few power packs, monolights, flashmeters and what not, and I have no problem with analysing contrast ratios, but this was more for quick and dirty photography when I only want to use an on camera flash and not set up an in promptu studio...
 
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non sequiteur

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I used to do photography quite a lot, but had a hiatus, so just trying to ease my self back in to everything
 

BrianShaw

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non sequiteur said:
I have several. I tend to use an old nikon sb-15 a lot for on camera flash. Then I have more professional studio equipment, but seldom use it unfortunately
Click to expand...

I assume that you’ve already seen page 40 in the SB-15 user manual. Describes synchro-sun photography in several modes. A flash with partial power levels would give more refined results with greater flexibility of options but that’s a good strobe for basic photography. I use an earlier version of that strobe on a F3.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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What are the advantages and disadvantages between this method and the 50% reduced flashed output method?
 

Chan Tran

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non sequiteur said:
I have several. I tend to use an old nikon sb-15 a lot for on camera flash. Then I have more professional studio equipment, but seldom use it unfortunately
Click to expand...

I have 2 of the SB-15's. I asked because with the SB-15 the technique describled by Ian C. to change the ISO to adjust the fill level doesn't work.
 

MattKing

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Alan Edward Klein said:
What are the advantages and disadvantages between this method and the 50% reduced flashed output method?
Click to expand...

It adjusts the amount of fill flash automatically. Within the flash's range, it automatically adjusts the output to the flash to subject distance - no need to change the aperture when you or the subject move.
The method is essentially the same as using the flash normally - you just choose an aperture that results in a less than full exposure - e.g. 50% - from the flash. The full exposure of most of the subject comes from the ambient light.
In case it isn't obvious, you use fill flash when the faces (or other point of main interest) of your subjects are backlit or otherwise shadowed, while substantial and important other parts of your subject are fully illuminated - often from behind or the side - by the ambient light.
In a portrait or wedding photography environment, it is great to turn your subjects around so they are backlit by the sun. They can stop squinting, they gain a sort of isolating halo, and their otherwise shadowed faces can then be more subtly illuminated by a reduced but still useful amount of illumination from the flash.
To do it effectively and subtly, it is important to be familiar with how the auto function on your flash behaves in this application. My only caveat with the initial question in this thread is that I have done this most with auto flashes that were actually quite good ones in their day - not the proverbial "cheap" ones.
 

Chan Tran

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Alan Edward Klein said:
What are the advantages and disadvantages between this method and the 50% reduced flashed output method?
Click to expand...

The problem with reducing flash output to 50% are two folds.
1. You will have use the GN or flashmeter to determine how much light the 50% is because the amount of light will depend on the distance.
2. Many flashes have no option for reducing flash output to 50%. For example the Nikon SB-15 the OP wanted to use doesn't a 50% setting. It only has the winder setting which is about 1/12 power.
 
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Sirius Glass

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I have a Nikon SB-800 for any fill in and any other flash needs.
 

plimsoll1

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I used to do this all the time with my old Vivitar 283s. E.g., set the flash to f4 and the lens to 5.6-8 for -1.5 stops of fill flash. I never had a problem and it almost always produced the desired results.
 
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non sequiteur

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plimsoll1 said:
I used to do this all the time with my old Vivitar 283s. E.g., set the flash to f4 and the lens to 5.6-8 for -1.5 stops of fill flash. I never had a problem and it almost always produced the desired results.
Click to expand...

Ah, at last, a concrete answer! I have an old vivitar 283 too. I forgot some batteries in it and it needs a proper cleaning.

On a serious note, thanks to everybody who chipped in.
 

MattKing

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plimsoll1 said:
I used to do this all the time with my old Vivitar 283s. E.g., set the flash to f4 and the lens to 5.6-8 for -1.5 stops of fill flash. I never had a problem and it almost always produced the desired results.
Click to expand...

non sequiteur said:
Ah, at last, a concrete answer! I have an old vivitar 283 too. I forgot some batteries in it and it needs a proper cleaning.

On a serious note, thanks to everybody who chipped in.
Click to expand...

Merely a simpler version of what I posted several posts before .
I think I started with a Vivitar 273 (?), but a couple of 283s followed, plus many more thereafter.
Caution though - batteries left in a flash can end up killing it.
 

Chan Tran

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MattKing said:
Caution though - batteries left in a flash can end up killing it.
Click to expand...

I found not using a flash in a long time make it not working. I have 4 flashes that share the same symptom.
A Vivitar 283.
A Rollei 134 REB
A Canon 166A
A Minolta Auto 200X
I haven't used them in a long time and recently I took them out and played with them and found they didn't turn on. I turned them on for a couple of minutes and the ready light not light up. Curiously (also it was my project recently to find way to power these flashes with external power) I used long alligator clips and clipped to the springs inside the battery compartment to power them up with a power supply. I just want to see if they draw any current at all. I found that they do draw relatively high current. I had the power supply current limit to 3A and they drawed the 3A with the voltage dropped down to about 2V. But as I watched the voltage coming backup then when the voltage reached 6V the current started to drop. When the current dropped to about 1A the ready light turned on. This is about 5 to 10 minutes after powering them up. After that they worked fine normally. The the ready light would come up in about 10 seconds.
 

wiltw

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Many autoflash units suggest an f/stop to achieve 'full exposure' assuming low ambient light level contributes little to overall exposure...so the dial suggests f/4, at it assumes that the flash will be used within its max range (like 25') and at f/4 25' will be exposed correctly; and if closer distance, the photosensor cuts off the light output sooner.
So if your lens is set to f/5.6, the f/4-expecting flash would be providing -1EV fill relative to ambient light level.

Therefore, if ambient is ISO 100 1/100 f/16 and the flash suggests f/4, the flash would be providing -4EV fill, which is not enough to affect the shot. One would need to use a more powerful flash for fill in this situation (one that has at least GN 110, for a subject distance of 10')
 
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