Used too little chemistry

rayonline_nz · Oct 5, 2016

I used a Paterson tank, had 2 reels. I used 300ml instead of 600ml. They were actually the same roll but for some reason the film cinked up so I had to snip it in the middle and develop as (2) parts. Part (1) had some cink up film uneven development. Part (2) was fine but I used too little chemistry. The film is there so it is not blank. I did use 600ml of fixer.

Anyway to add further development to part (2)?
Have any of you came across cinked film before? It was the 5th time I tried it (after disassembling the reel and start over) but each time it cinked up. You ratchet the reel and what happen is that somewhere in the middle of the roll balloons up. The 5th time I did it, it didn't balloon but from the result the film was cinked up. FWIW, fresh film, Kodak Tri-X 400 shot at 800, developed in ID-11 (same as D76) for the time of 8mins under 20 degrees celsius (as per Kodak's PDF).

This is the first that cinked up ever. I have since developed 2 more rolls with the same reels and they have been fine.

Thanks in advance.

Kirks518 · Oct 5, 2016

Either your reel is dirty, or the reel may have been wet/moist. The Paterson nay-sayers will be here shortly, but IMO, they're great if maintained properly.

Leigh B · Oct 5, 2016

I used a Paterson tank frequently when shooting 35mm.
The reel must be completely dry. Any moisture at all will cause the film to hang.

I run the film between my little finger and ring finger (wearing gloves) on the way to the reel.
That way I can straighten it and detect any feed problems before they reach the reel itself.

I've never had the film kink, although many times it wanted to curl up.

- Leigh

MattKing · Oct 5, 2016

The Paterson reels also need to have their two sides parallel to each other. There is a tendency to hold them too tightly, in a way that pushes them out of parallel. That tendency increases with frustration.

Leigh B · Oct 5, 2016

rayonline_nz said:
Anyway to add further development to part (2)?

All latent information was removed during the fixing step.

It no longer exists, consequently there's no process extant to develop it.

- Leigh

Gerald C Koch · Oct 5, 2016

Kirks518 said:
Either your reel is dirty, or the reel may have been wet/moist. The Paterson nay-sayers will be here shortly, but IMO, they're great if maintained properly.

Nay, nay, nay.

It helps to keep the reels as clean as possible. Soak them periodically in a warm 1% sodium sulfite solution followed by a good rinse. The exact amount of sulfite is not critical. The sulfite solution is a bit alkaline and will help get the crud loosened in the reels. This is what I did years ago when using plastic reels.

R.Gould · Oct 6, 2016

Run a pencil around the groves of the p;astic reel, you need nothing else, no soaking, scrubbing, washing or anything else, just the pencil around the groves and the film slips in, if you forget the pencil and the film sticks the a sharp tap on the works surface will free it, all I have ever done and I have, in over 50 years of using Paterson reels I have never had a problem, I never scrub my reels, the only wash they get is washing the films,and I always use wetting agent in the final rinse, then hang the films up and put the reels to dry, I have also loaded damp reels, never a problem, just my pencil

Svenedin · Oct 6, 2016

This has happened to me more than once. It was probably dirt or moisture on the reel (but a faulty camera could conceivably damage the edge of the film). If the film jams repeatedly and you try to force it you can get a kink. The kink was probably on the edge of the film and it was never going to load once the kink was there. I have managed to load damaged film by feeling along the edges and cutting out just the tiny damaged bit on the edge. If it is really bad you have to cut the film in two like you did.

Don't re-use a reel until it is bone dry. This has happened to me when it became very hot and humid in a changing bag and the film became sticky.

RauschenOderKorn · Oct 6, 2016

rayonline_nz said:
Anyway to add further development to part (2)?

Reviewing the literature, there are/used to be intensifiers based on selenium, uranium, mercury and silver, among others. Eder describes a process where fixing takes place prior to development and then a silver enhancement is applied. I do not know if this works with modern film, but the only idea I have. If you are interested, I can post the recipe for this silver intensifier.

Jim Noel · Oct 6, 2016

Do you use Photo-Flo, and if so do you dunk your reels in it? If so, this is the cause of your problem. It has a tendency to build up in the grooves and prevent the film sliding smoothly. Scrub the grooves with a stiff toothbrush, then rinse them well. Next either throw away the Photo-Flo and replace it with the other wetting agent, or take your film off the reels following washing and run it through PhotoFlo off the reels.

darkroommike · Oct 6, 2016

Jim Noel said:
Do you use Photo-Flo, and if so do you dunk your reels in it? If so, this is the cause of your problem. It has a tendency to build up in the grooves and prevent the film sliding smoothly. Scrub the grooves with a stiff toothbrush, then rinse them well. Next either throw away the Photo-Flo and replace it with the other wetting agent, or take your film off the reels following washing and run it through PhotoFlo off the reels.

Never had the problem in 40+ years, I just rinse my reels in warm water, PhotoFlo is just detergent and is water soluble.

flavio81 · Oct 6, 2016

Jim Noel said:
Do you use Photo-Flo, and if so do you dunk your reels in it? If so, this is the cause of your problem. It has a tendency to build up in the grooves and prevent the film sliding smoothly. Scrub the grooves with a stiff toothbrush, then rinse them well. Next either throw away the Photo-Flo and replace it with the other wetting agent, or take your film off the reels following washing and run it through PhotoFlo off the reels.

Thanks for this advice. Whatever chemical is doing this, i do have some gunk accumulated over time in my plastic reels and it's making loading difficult.

MattKing · Oct 6, 2016

The gunk that accumulates is most likely an amalgam of Photo-flo and gelatin. The gelatin is sticky, and somehow the Photo-flo encourages it to build up.

Agulliver · Oct 7, 2016

I've used both Paterson and Jobo reels, and though I prefer the latter I see nothing wrong with the Paterson. Both can get gunked up. I use a toothbrush once a year or so to loosen anything and give something of a deep clean. Obviously frequency of cleaning depends on how much you use your spirals.

And sometimes every now and then a film just refuses to load onto a reel. I had it with brand new fresh HP5+ a couple of months ago. No reason why, and the rest of the film from the bulk roll was fine. Just that one film decided it did not want to be loaded onto a reel.

Svenedin · Oct 7, 2016

Hot cycle in the dishwasher gets the reels very clean or a soak in a bucket of water with some household bleach. I cleaned my reels recently and was surprised by how much gunk appeared floating in the bucket.

Leigh B · Oct 7, 2016

I would think a quick soak in really hot water should clean off any residual gelatin that's stuck to the reels.

- Leigh

rpavich · Oct 8, 2016

flavio81 said:
Thanks for this advice. Whatever chemical is doing this, i do have some gunk accumulated over time in my plastic reels and it's making loading difficult.

Naysayer here

It could also remain a mystery. Ive had problems just like the OP described and ive tried everything offered here on this thread and more, after a while the uncertainty of how loading might go caused me to spend the money on a couple of hewes stainless steel reels and a cheap metal tank. After spending the 15 minutes learning how to load them ive never had the uncertainty again...loading reels is quickly done and stress free.

Youll notice the broad and patternless amount of replies here...all of the way from one end of the spectrum to the other...pencil, bone dry, bleach, dish washer, chemicals, no chems, no special treatment, never a problem, alawys a problem...

Leigh B · Oct 8, 2016

rpavich said:
Youll notice the broad and patternless amount of replies here...all of the way from one end of the spectrum to the other...pencil, bone dry, bleach, dish washer, chemicals, no chems, no special treatment, never a problem, alawys a problem...

That's because everybody's different.

Different equipment,
different chemistry,
different work patterns,
different habits,
different facilities,
different water quality,
etc.

That's the value of internet fora...
You get a variety of opinions and solutions. Hopefully one or more will fit the OP's needs.

- Leigh

Svenedin · Oct 8, 2016

rpavich said:
Naysayer here

It could also remain a mystery. Ive had problems just like the OP described and ive tried everything offered here on this thread and more, after a while the uncertainty of how loading might go caused me to spend the money on a couple of hewes stainless steel reels and a cheap metal tank. After spending the 15 minutes learning how to load them ive never had the uncertainty again...loading reels is quickly done and stress free.

Youll notice the broad and patternless amount of replies here...all of the way from one end of the spectrum to the other...pencil, bone dry, bleach, dish washer, chemicals, no chems, no special treatment, never a problem, alawys a problem...

I disagree. Broad yes, patternless no.

We know why film jams on reels. It is obvious. Film jams when there is too much friction for it to slide easily through the narrow channels. All of these suggestions can increase friction:

1) Reel wet; gelatin swells on film edge
2) Humid, hot conditions (e.g. changing bag); film becomes tacky/sticky
3) Holding reel too tightly; gap is narrowed and film cannot pass easily
4) Damaged film edge; kink sticks in channel
5) Dirty reels; channel narrowed, film sticks

and the solutions offered make sense as well:

1) Clean the reels; dishwasher, bleach, toothbrush, hot water. Any of these methods can successfully clean the reels
2) Pencil; graphite can lubricate the channel
3) Bone dry reels; film does not become sticky
4) Don't compress the reel tightly when loading, pull it apart slightly; gap is wider for easier loading

rpavich · Oct 8, 2016

Svenedin said:
I disagree. Broad yes, patternless no.

We know why film jams on reels. It is obvious. Film jams when there is too much friction for it to slide easily through the narrow channels. All of these suggestions can increase friction:

1) Reel wet; gelatin swells on film edge
2) Humid, hot conditions (e.g. changing bag); film becomes tacky/sticky
3) Holding reel too tightly; gap is narrowed and film cannot pass easily
4) Damaged film edge; kink sticks in channel
5) Dirty reels; channel narrowed, film sticks

and the solutions offered make sense as well:

1) Clean the reels; dishwasher, bleach, toothbrush, hot water. Any of these methods can successfully clean the reels
2) Pencil; graphite can lubricate the channel
3) Bone dry reels; film does not become sticky
4) Don't compress the reel tightly when loading, pull it apart slightly; gap is wider for easier loading

True in that sense, but in the sense that there is consensus in how effective one or other fix will be (if at all!) and no consensus on the exact cause except that there is "something" on the reels.

Im not looking for a fight, just stating another point of view, an additional "fix" thats all.

rpavich · Oct 8, 2016

Leigh B said:
That's the value of internet fora...
You get a variety of opinions and solutions. Hopefully one or more will fit the OP's needs.

- Leigh

And also its downfall too.

If one of these solutions works for the OP...GREAT! but if not, i was offering another solution, that of changing systems and forgoing all of this.

Im not looking to fight or argue over it, its just another point of view that hadnt been mentioned yet, thats all.

Svenedin · Oct 8, 2016

rpavich said:
True in that sense, but in the sense that there is consensus in how effective one or other fix will be (if at all!) and no consensus on the exact cause except that there is "something" on the reels.

Im not looking for a fight, just stating another point of view, an additional "fix" thats all.

There are multiple possible reasons why the OP's film jammed. None of us were there to see what happened. It is a bit like saying "My car stopped working, why is this?". Internet forums are great but there are limits.

Leigh B · Oct 8, 2016

rpavich said:
If one of these solutions works for the OP...GREAT! but if not, i was offering another solution, that of changing systems and forgoing all of this.

Changing systems is not a solution.

It's an avoidance and surrender, potentially costing a whole bunch of money.

For example, changing from a Jobo rotary system to a Nikkor metal tank system would cost many dollars.

Combine that with a major change in process and workflow, and you're suggesting a huge effort.

- Leigh

rpavich · Oct 8, 2016

Leigh B said:
Changing systems is not a solution.

It's an avoidance and surrender, potentially costing a whole bunch of money.

For example, changing from a Jobo rotary system to a Nikkor metal tank system would cost many dollars.

Combine that with a major change in process and workflow, and you're suggesting a huge effort.

- Leigh

I guess maybe for you $40.00 and 15 minutes work learning to use a SS reel is a huge effort and cost but for me, it was infinitely less effort and minimal cost considering what I've spent for other items in this hobby.

I mentioned it because it hadn't been mentioned yet and on a thread here on the apug the same thing happened to me (I was the OP in that case) and there WERE quite a few folks who did change systems and so I took their advice and it worked out in a major way for me, I'm as happy as a clam.

Again, I'll reiterate...for you or anyone else here..mazel tov! on the cleaning methods and all that...for me, personally, not one of those solutions offered worked.

I'm willing to quit arguing this point and let others chime in with solutions now if you are.

Used too little chemistry

rayonline_nz

Kirks518

Leigh B

MattKing

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Leigh B

Gerald C Koch

R.Gould

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Jim Noel

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MattKing

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Agulliver

Svenedin

Leigh B

rpavich

Leigh B

Svenedin

rpavich

rpavich

Svenedin

Leigh B

rpavich

Used too little chemistry

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