Used Sodium Thiosulfate disposal

kintatsu · Apr 12, 2013

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_thiosulfate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_thiosulfate

Based on what I read at the above links, there should be no problem mixing them until you can dump them. I would recommend a trial with a small amount of each in a plastic bottle.

As you can see, Ammonium thiosulfate is basically non-toxic, and can even be used as fertilizer. Sodium thiosulfate is even used in medicine, as a disinfectant and chelating agent, and is even used in table salt. Even though the laws may discourage dumping, it is safer than many other things we put into the ground.

noacronym · Apr 12, 2013

I can't participate on this thread. I haven't been banned, but getting e-mails telling me I'm "racist" for daring to bring moderation to the mass insanity of political correctness and the chicken little orthodoxy is tiresome. See the Johnathan Winters thread about humor and class. It's lost on this country now. Enjoy the photography, folks. Every time a shutter snaps, the earth loses 10,000 years of existence. Or an angel gets his wings. I forget...:munch:

noacronym · Apr 12, 2013

StoneNYC said:
There's only room for one annoying poster and I came first! :munch:

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

noacronym · Apr 12, 2013

jnanian said:
when you send someone a PM and refer to barack obama as a "chimpanzee"
it is a racist and offensive remark. it was not "humor" any of your
suggested defenses. if not liking racist, bigoted remarks makes me a "liberal" and "democrat'
( which seems to be the worst thing i can be ? ) then i guess i am just that, because i am far far away from your ideals ..

please keep the derogatory, offensive propaganda to yourself.

This person e-mailed me spitting venom and cracking the Democrat Party whip. I called their president a chimpanzee. Enjoy the photography folks. Just appreciate and enjoy it, and the people who manufacture the goods to do it.

Toffle · Apr 12, 2013

Offensive political rhetoric reported.

Now, I want to know more about recovering/handling/disposing precipitated silver.

I used to dispose of my chems through the tech department of the school I worked at, and have since been taking it in jugs to the local waste management, but as someone stated earlier, some "recycling centers" don't seem to be very well prepared to deal with used photochemicals.

If I have removed the silver from the fixer, is it still an environmental hazard?

Respectfully,
Tom

polyglot · Apr 13, 2013

If the silver is removed, I don't believe it to be particularly dangerous. Main thing is that it's usually quite acidic. It's used as a chelating agent in pools, for example, and even given to humans to reduce heavy-metal poisoning. So it's not hugely toxic but as always, the dose/concentration matters.

I believe photo labs are permitted to release silver-free thiosulfate; at least Kodak's tech docs certainly give that impression by talking about permissible silver levels (a few ppm) in waste discharge streams resulting from a fixer replenishment & silver-reclamation cycles.

Toffle · Apr 13, 2013

Thanks for that. I appreciate the information.

Tom

removed account4 · Apr 14, 2013

polyglot said:
If the silver is removed, I don't believe it to be particularly dangerous. Main thing is that it's usually quite acidic. It's used as a chelating agent in pools, for example, and even given to humans to reduce heavy-metal poisoning. So it's not hugely toxic but as always, the dose/concentration matters.

I believe photo labs are permitted to release silver-free thiosulfate; at least Kodak's tech docs certainly give that impression by talking about permissible silver levels (a few ppm) in waste discharge streams resulting from a fixer replenishment & silver-reclamation cycles.

hi polyglot

you're right on ... 20lb buckets of sodium thiosulfate used to be sold in swimming pool and spa shops ...
it is / was used to reduce as a "shock" against the chlorine. a lot of people used to
get a bucket to last a lifetime for fixer ... but not many people sell it anymore ( maybe something better is available ? )
...i have found 1 place in my area, but i would have to get 50lbs of it ( still for 20$ its not bad ) but i don't think my lifetime
will last that long .... ammonium thiosulfate ... from what i remember is sold as fertilizer ...

i wonder if someone had a huge gathering and everyone is clad in silver jewelry + armor if the pool-owners are permitted to just drain their pool
or if enough silver has been dissolved by the thiosulfate in the pool water that they have to have all the pool contents hauled away as toxic waste ?

considering it costs about 100$ for a waste hauler to remove 15 gallons of spent fixer ... it must cost a small fortune to haul away a swimming pool.

nworth · Apr 15, 2013

Toffle said:
Offensive political rhetoric reported.

Now, I want to know more about recovering/handling/disposing precipitated silver.

I used to dispose of my chems through the tech department of the school I worked at, and have since been taking it in jugs to the local waste management, but as someone stated earlier, some "recycling centers" don't seem to be very well prepared to deal with used photochemicals.

If I have removed the silver from the fixer, is it still an environmental hazard?

Respectfully,
Tom

The most popular methods of recovering silver are reduction with iron, usually steel wool, and precipitation with sulfide. There are several kits available for silver recovery, and they are the most convenient way of handling the problem. Silver recovery is usually done for economic, rather than environmental, reasons. As noted above, it's not so much the environmental impact of small amounts of spent fixer as what the local regulations say. They may or may not allow fixer without silver.

Worker 11811 · Apr 16, 2013

I use the Silver Magnet. It works by electrolysis. Basically electroplates the silver out onto an electrode.

It's a small unit, about the size of a pencil box with a couple of electrodes inside and a wire coming out. Connect the wires to the low voltage, DC "wall wart" transformer and plug it in to the wall outlet. Drop the box into a container of silver-saturated fixer and wait for a few days. When you've got as much silver out as you can, unplug it, rinse in clear water, let it dry and put it away until later use. After several uses, it will be full of silver. When that happens, send it in to get refined/recycled. You get money back.

I store my spent fixer in a 5 gal. bucket. When it gets about half full, I use the Silver Magnet. Each time, I get about an ounce of silver, more or less. I've used it three times and it's not even 10% full, yet. By the time it gets full, there will be a LOT of silver in there. Easily several hundred dollars worth.

It costs about $40 to $50. By the time it gets full, I will have paid for the thing many times over.

I would say that I recover my silver for economic AND environmental reasons. Maybe the money comes first but I do care about getting the silver out before I dispose of the fixer. Getting money for it just makes it feel even more worthwhile.

StoneNYC · Apr 16, 2013

Worker 11811 said:
I use the Silver Magnet. It works by electrolysis. Basically electroplates the silver out onto an electrode.

It's a small unit, about the size of a pencil box with a couple of electrodes inside and a wire coming out. Connect the wires to the low voltage, DC "wall wart" transformer and plug it in to the wall outlet. Drop the box into a container of silver-saturated fixer and wait for a few days. When you've got as much silver out as you can, unplug it, rinse in clear water, let it dry and put it away until later use. After several uses, it will be full of silver. When that happens, send it in to get refined/recycled. You get money back.

I store my spent fixer in a 5 gal. bucket. When it gets about half full, I use the Silver Magnet. Each time, I get about an ounce of silver, more or less. I've used it three times and it's not even 10% full, yet. By the time it gets full, there will be a LOT of silver in there. Easily several hundred dollars worth.

It costs about $40 to $50. By the time it gets full, I will have paid for the thing many times over.

I would say that I recover my silver for economic AND environmental reasons. Maybe the money comes first but I do care about getting the silver out before I dispose of the fixer. Getting money for it just makes it feel even more worthwhile.

So it's reusable?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

MattKing · Apr 16, 2013

StoneNYC said:
So it's reusable?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

You install a new anode when you send the old, silver plated one in to the silver refiners.

For more info, ask John Nanian (jnanian here on APUG). He sells them through APUG.

Here is his main thread on the subject: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Worker 11811 · Apr 16, 2013

It's a clear plastic box about 6 in. long, 3 in. wide and about an inch deep.

I've used it a few times and it builds up a couple of millimeters of silver inside each time. Eventually, the silver will build up so much that the electrodes will short out but, at the rate I use fixer, that will be quite a while.

When it is full, the box will have to be cut open. It's a two-piece construction with holes in the top and sides for the liquid to circulate through. It is heat welded together. In order for somebody to get that ingot of silver out, they'll have to split the plastic open, essentially destroying it but figure that you paid $50 for it and you'll probably get several hundred dollars for the silver. A worthwhile sacrifice. You'll still have the transformer so you only need to buy a new collector box.

I'm not going to get rich off this but I'll be able to buy a couple cases of beer and still have plenty left over to buy more film with.

StoneNYC · Apr 16, 2013

Worker 11811 said:
It's a clear plastic box about 6 in. long, 3 in. wide and about an inch deep.

I've used it a few times and it builds up a couple of millimeters of silver inside each time. Eventually, the silver will build up so much that the electrodes will short out but, at the rate I use fixer, that will be quite a while.

When it is full, the box will have to be cut open. It's a two-piece construction with holes in the top and sides for the liquid to circulate through. It is heat welded together. In order for somebody to get that ingot of silver out, they'll have to split the plastic open, essentially destroying it but figure that you paid $50 for it and you'll probably get several hundred dollars for the silver. A worthwhile sacrifice. You'll still have the transformer so you only need to buy a new collector box.

I'm not going to get rich off this but I'll be able to buy a couple cases of beer and still have plenty left over to buy more film with.

I didn't realize it was that much money... Could the collector be used in alcohol bottles that have silver and gold in it like goldschlager?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

polyglot · Apr 16, 2013

You don't need to spend $50 for a silver magnet to recover silver.

You just need a low-current DC supply (wall wart or regulated benchtop supply if you have one) and a couple of electrodes (preferably Cu). The main thing is that the electrode current density (amps per surface area) needs to be low enough to not cause electrolysis of the water or other salts as you just want to take the silver out and not produce hydrogen, chlorine or ammonia. I don't recall the exact numbers but google will know; if you keep the current low enough then it will work. This is where adjustable regulated supplies make it easier to tweak, or just use a really big electrode with a small supply but that means the Ag is spread thinly.

Obviously you want as high a current as possible without causing gassing in order to keep the recovery rate up, plus you need reasonable mixing of the solution. Commercial extractors use a drum electrode that rotates slowly. In some cases of slow extraction (requires careful control of both voltage and current, and a shutoff), you can even reuse the fixer afterwards, but most extractors will destroy the fixer.

Worker 11811 · Apr 16, 2013

polyglot said:
You don't need to spend $50 for a silver magnet to recover silver.

You are correct. You don't need to buy a ready made solution to extract silver from your waste fixer. You can find out all you need to know in order to do it by using Google. I have done projects like this and I would certainly encourage others who have the inclination and some basic knowledge to do the same. It's fun and informative.

However, when I do projects like this, there is always an expense. I have to buy materials and equipment. I have to use tools and supplies that I already possess. It takes time and work. While its not too expensive or too much work, sometimes I find it to be easier and cheaper to buy that ready made solution. By the time you factor in the expense of materials and the cost of your time, it often evens out in the end.

If I wanted to have pizza for dinner, I could go out and buy flour, tomatoes, vegetables and pepperoni to make my own or I could make a phone call to the pizza parlor down the street. Both methods will provide me with a good dinner. Making it myself provides a certain sense of satisfaction in a job well done but, darn it, sometimes I just want pizza and I don't want to fuss around. I can have good pizza from Pepino's Pizza Parlor in 30 minutes and it won't cost any more than making my own.

In this case, I just want the silver out of my fixer and I don't want to fuss around. It was worth it, to me, to buy the ready made solution. Maybe, next time, I'll do it myself.

It's a decision that people should make for themselves.

StoneNYC · Apr 16, 2013

Worker 11811 said:
You are correct. You don't need to buy a ready made solution to extract silver from your waste fixer. You can find out all you need to know in order to do it by using Google. I have done projects like this and I would certainly encourage others who have the inclination and some basic knowledge to do the same. It's fun and informative.

However, when I do projects like this, there is always an expense. I have to buy materials and equipment. I have to use tools and supplies that I already possess. It takes time and work. While its not too expensive or too much work, sometimes I find it to be easier and cheaper to buy that ready made solution. By the time you factor in the expense of materials and the cost of your time, it often evens out in the end.

If I wanted to have pizza for dinner, I could go out and buy flour, tomatoes, vegetables and pepperoni to make my own or I could make a phone call to the pizza parlor down the street. Both methods will provide me with a good dinner. Making it myself provides a certain sense of satisfaction in a job well done but, darn it, sometimes I just want pizza and I don't want to fuss around. I can have good pizza from Pepino's Pizza Parlor in 30 minutes and it won't cost any more than making my own.

In this case, I just want the silver out of my fixer and I don't want to fuss around. It was worth it, to me, to buy the ready made solution. Maybe, next time, I'll do it myself.

It's a decision that people should make for themselves.

I'm very confused about the silver amount extracted. For example. I read you get a about 1/4 Troy oz of silver per "device" when it's filled up. And someone said you get about $200+ per return, but 1 Troy oz is only worth $22 today I looked it up. So how would 1/4 of that equal hundreds of dollars...

What am I missing?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Worker 11811 · Apr 16, 2013

When my device fills up, I will have a block of silver approximately six inches long, three inches wide and an inch thick. I don't know exactly how much that will weigh but it will certainly be more than 0.25 oz.

Maybe you'll get a quarter ounce per use but you'll use it several times until the thing gets full.

I don't use my darkroom every day. Probably a week's use out of a month.
I reuse fixer until it is exhausted. I save the spent fixer in a bucket. I throw film scraps and test strips into the fixer bucket and let them soak until all he silver is "eaten up." By the time the time I get around to extracting the silver, my bucket is half full of saturated fixer.

I weighed the collector before the first time I used it. 76 grams.
I've used it three times. Now it weighs 169 grams. Almost three ounces. About $65.00 worth of silver at today's prices.

Already a worthwhile pursuit but, by the time the thing gets full, I'll have much more than that.

StoneNYC · Apr 16, 2013

Worker 11811 said:
When my device fills up, I will have a block of silver approximately six inches long, three inches wide and an inch thick. I don't know exactly how much that will weigh but it will certainly be more than 0.25 oz.

Maybe you'll get a quarter ounce per use but you'll use it several times until the thing gets full.

I don't use my darkroom every day. Probably a week's use out of a month.
I reuse fixer until it is exhausted. I save the spent fixer in a bucket. I throw film scraps and test strips into the fixer bucket and let them soak until all he silver is "eaten up." By the time the time I get around to extracting the silver, my bucket is half full of saturated fixer.

I weighed the collector before the first time I used it. 76 grams.
I've used it three times. Now it weighs 169 grams. Almost three ounces. About $65.00 worth of silver at today's prices.

Already a worthwhile pursuit but, by the time the thing gets full, I'll have much more than that.

Oh good to know! And this is bought from John?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

removed account4 · Apr 16, 2013

thanks guys ...

===

hi stone

the magnet can hold 30-32 troy oz
the price of silver today ( 5/16 ) is
23.62 ... 30*23=690$
the refiners usually take about 10% of that
for their refining fee so you would get a check
for 690-69=621$ ... the price of silver goes up and down
like the tide, so this week it might be 23$ and ...
in a few months it might be back up at 39$ again

===
polyglot,
by all means make one, and USE IT
the more people extracting the silver from their spent fixer
... the better. the magnet is just a low cost, proven and effective way to do it ...
no testing, no worries, just plug+play as they say ...

have fun!
john

StoneNYC · Apr 16, 2013

jnanian said:
thanks guys ...

===

hi stone

the magnet can hold 30-32 troy oz
the price of silver today ( 5/16 ) is
23.62 ... 30*23=690$
the refiners usually take about 10% of that
for their refining fee so you would get a check
for 690-69=621$ ... the price of silver goes up and down
like the tide, so this week it might be 23$ and ...
in a few months it might be back up at 39$ again

===
polyglot,
by all means make one, and USE IT
the more people extracting the silver from their spent fixer
... the better. the magnet is just a low cost, proven and effective way to do it ...
no testing, no worries, just plug+play as they say ...

have fun!
john

Ok I'm in assuming I can afford the setup haha (have to see how many paychecks come in...)

I think my GF likes silver, perhaps I can use this silver for a ring? A ring from film? Haha

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Mr Bill · Apr 16, 2013

Worker 11811 said:
You don't need to buy a ready made solution to extract silver from your waste fixer. You can find out all you need to know in order to do it by using Google.

I've had quite a lot of experience recovering silver from photo solutions, and my experience is that "adequate" instructions on DIY electrolytic silver recovery are virtually non-existent on the Internet. I could never understand this lack of info, and eventually came to the conclusion that, although it is ofter written about, very few have actually done it. Also, the traditional technical books on photography don't seem to have much practical information; they seem to only mention a few main chemical reactions.

polyglot · Apr 16, 2013

StoneNYC said:
Ok I'm in assuming I can afford the setup haha (have to see how many paychecks come in...)

I think my GF likes silver, perhaps I can use this silver for a ring? A ring from film? Haha

If you have silversmithing stuff, certainly you can do that. The purity may or may not be good enough: you can get other metals included if you run the extraction at too-high voltage, or you might end up with it near 99% purity.

Some custom jewellers will make things for you from any old bit of metal or rock you provide them with.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 16, 2013

Recovering silver by electrodeposition is not as easy as some would believe. There are many factors which can determine whether the process makes you money or not, Things to consider are

1. Voltage
2. Amperage
3, Electrode size in in2
4. Electrode composition
5. Electrode shapes and configuration
6. Electrode spacing
7. Electrolyte composition
8. Circulation of the electrolyte
9. Your cost for electricity
10. The resale value of the silver

Miscalculations in any of these factors can severely decrease your profits!

There is a brief section in Mason describing the process.

polyglot · Apr 17, 2013

Mr Bill said:
I've had quite a lot of experience recovering silver from photo solutions, and my experience is that "adequate" instructions on DIY electrolytic silver recovery are virtually non-existent on the Internet. I could never understand this lack of info, and eventually came to the conclusion that, although it is ofter written about, very few have actually done it. Also, the traditional technical books on photography don't seem to have much practical information; they seem to only mention a few main chemical reactions.

Since you've done it, do you want to write an "adequate" set of instructions to go in my FAQ? Even if it's just a set of simple requirements (min/max electrode voltage, current limits, suitable electrode metals, stirring, etc) rather than instructions, that'd be a good start that a competent hacker could build something from.

Used Sodium Thiosulfate disposal

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