Used Sodium Thiosulfate disposal

nworth · Apr 8, 2013

jnanian said:
i'm always amazed that people condone dumping stuff down the drain ...
it reminds me of someone who suggested it was just fine to dump cyanide down the drain
because there aren't many people doing it, or the guy down the road who was dumping fluorescent green
machine shop solvent down the storm drain .... because he paid taxes and could do whatever he wanted ...

First to the OP's original question: Fixer, even acidic rapid fixer, has a high enough pH so that it is OK to mix ammonium and sodium residues. Some SO2 may be evolved, but not a significant amount.

Now to the quote. Limited amounts of most water soluble things, including cyanide, can be disposed down the drain. Disposal of machine shop solvents, most petrochemical derivatives, and many other organic things is a definite no-no. Petrochemicals and a lot of other things are not water soluble and actually interfere with waste processing. As has been noted above, do not put chemicals down a storm drain. They will re-enter the environment quickly and in an uncontrolled manner that could cause local harm.

While small quantities of photographic chemicals can be disposed of down the drain safely, industrial amounts are another matter. The waste treatment people worry about two thing here. One is toxic contamination. This is usually not a problem, since the sewage environment and the treatment usually takes care of it. But large quantities may cause special problems, particularly if the come in a short period of time. The other problem is maintaining the sewage treatment system. Sewage treatment is a fermentation process, and anything that would kill the bacteria used in the treatment is obviously detrimental. There are some other concerns, but these are the biggest ones. Most sewage treatment authorities have a schedule of what can be disposed of without concern, and the limits for uncontrolled discharge of things like chromium, thiosulfate, cyanide, silver ion, hydroquinone, and the like. For greater quantities, up to a limit, you usually need a permit, need to keep records, and need to adhere to a strict schedule. A few things, like petrochemicals, are usually forbidden. But there are only a few. The rules vary a lot depending on the size and location of the waste disposal facility. Your local sewage treatment agency can give you details.

Thiosulfate is a pretty innocuous chemical, as are the other chemicals in spent fixer. Any government that strictly forbids small quantities of them in sewage is just plain stupid and is no doubt reacting to political pressure or panic.

NedL · Apr 9, 2013

nworth said:
First to the OP's original question: Fixer, even acidic rapid fixer, has a high enough pH so that it is OK to mix ammonium and sodium residues. Some SO2 may be evolved, but not a significant amount.
...

I appreciate this. Thank you.

AgX · Apr 9, 2013

The European Waste Code distinguishes between:

Developers (waterbased)
Offset plate developers (waterbased)
Developers (solvent based)
Fixer
Bleach and BLIX

This may help as a general guide for sorting waste.

mhcfires · Apr 10, 2013

In California the many regulatory agencies all get their panties in a royal half-hitch at the thought of anything they consider runoff. At the risk of getting political, the powers that be have been talking of regulating rainwater! I guess they are living in another world, I don't know how I am supposed to contain the water coming off the roof of my little house when it rains. :confused:

m

polyglot · Apr 10, 2013

The problem is not so much the thiosulfate but the silver. It's a biocide and will have a negative effect on the bacterial populations in your sewage processing plant, reducing its capacity to ferment and make safe the raw sewage. The magnitude of the effect depends on how big the plant is - a gallon of fixer might be nothing or it might significantly damage the plant. If you have a septic tank, a gallon of used fixer will be a serious problem for you.

I know someone who was discharging fixer onto the ground outside his lab (in the country, no sewage connection). There's a row of pine trees running past the lab and due to silver releases in just 5 years, the trees within 20m of the lab are all about half as high as the others - it's a really noticeable dip in the treeline.

The best thing is to take it to your local lab who will recover the silver and thank you for it. It's not that hard - just carry it in the next time you buy supplies or whatever. For example, I buy spring water (for making up developer) in 10L bag-in-box containers. Once empty, they store old fixer. Every year or so, I take a couple cubes (5 gallons) in and have them reclaimed.

Whingeing about environmental regulations because you resent or don't understand them is the height of self-defeating libertarian stupidity. Go live in China for a while if you think you don't care about pollution; they're a fantastic demonstration of the tragedy of the commons.

ME Super · Apr 11, 2013

mhcfires said:
In California the many regulatory agencies all get their panties in a royal half-hitch ... [snip]

Half-hitch, not a clove hitch? Sorry, couldn't help myself. Been working on learning knots with my son, who is a Boy Scout.

noacronym · Apr 11, 2013

polyglot said:
The problem is not so much the thiosulfate but the silver. It's a biocide and will have a negative effect on the bacterial populations in your sewage processing plant, reducing its capacity to ferment and make safe the raw sewage. The magnitude of the effect depends on how big the plant is - a gallon of fixer might be nothing or it might significantly damage the plant. If you have a septic tank, a gallon of used fixer will be a serious problem for you.

I know someone who was discharging fixer onto the ground outside his lab (in the country, no sewage connection). There's a row of pine trees running past the lab and due to silver releases in just 5 years, the trees within 20m of the lab are all about half as high as the others - it's a really noticeable dip in the treeline.

The best thing is to take it to your local lab who will recover the silver and thank you for it. It's not that hard - just carry it in the next time you buy supplies or whatever. For example, I buy spring water (for making up developer) in 10L bag-in-box containers. Once empty, they store old fixer. Every year or so, I take a couple cubes (5 gallons) in and have them reclaimed.

Whingeing about environmental regulations because you resent or don't understand them is the height of self-defeating libertarian stupidity. Go live in China for a while if you think you don't care about pollution; they're a fantastic demonstration of the tragedy of the commons.

You're in Australia--the politics may be different. I have my own acreage out in the country, and I would NEVER do something so stupid as what you've described. So, in essence, we're in agreement. You have to remember in America, the party that claims to be anti-pollution is a militant party of whackjobs and lunatics, aggressors and activists pushing every other fringe kook idea as a package deal. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. They will not hear of singling out a possibly good idea of theirs. If you do, they'll shove the whole party line down your throat.. and tax your money away leaving you defenseless to avoid them.

PhotoJim · Apr 11, 2013

noacronym said:
You're in Australia--the politics may be different. I have my own acreage out in the country, and I would NEVER do something so stupid as what you've described. So, in essence, we're in agreement. You have to remember in America, the party that claims to be anti-pollution is a militant party of whackjobs and lunatics, aggressors and activists pushing every other fringe kook idea as a package deal. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. They will not hear of singling out a possibly good idea of theirs. If you do, they'll shove the whole party line down your throat.. and tax your money away leaving you defenseless to avoid them.

Why do simple questions need to become political?

Jim

noacronym · Apr 11, 2013

The man from Australia opened that door and I answered. I don't much care for discussing this on this forum either. And I know the moderators and many other readers don't like it. This is a forum for photographic knowledge and fellowship. That said, I've never seen this country so divided since the chief executive's party came to power 6 years ago. It's so in-your-face these days, it's unprecedented.
As for me I deleted any possible "news" tidbits from appearing in front of me and annoying me on my yahoo mail so I could come here without being annoyed. The media is relentless with their agenda. I'm only interested in the photographic and electronic sites. Regards, friend.

Toffle · Apr 11, 2013

Thanks for sharing that. There is a place on this forum for this kind of discussion.

k?
thx

noacronym · Apr 11, 2013

Toffle said:
Thanks for sharing that. There is a place on this forum for this kind of discussion.

k?
thx

Thanks. I'd rather not go there. If I want to bang heads with politicos from the other side of the aisle, I'll see my stepsister, Nancy P's long lost twin. As a show of good will, I'd rather offer this episode of Man With a Camera starring Charles Bronson I watched the other night. Neat show. Enjoy.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/199843#i0,p10,d0

noacronym · Apr 11, 2013

I would like to apologize to my new photographic friends here for my occasional defensive writings on this forum. I don't want to be kicked off or shunned. I have learned much in my short time here, and seen names I hold respect for. My family has a problem with my stepsister and her husband and son who moved down here from Kent Ohio where he was a professor. These people have torn apart the family, alienated and run off all our parent's personal friends, and have created a situation where there is a bottle of nitroglycerine in the room. And we're not redneck people. My parents and their friends are well-to-do, successful, congenial, loving people of impeccable character and professional achievement, education, and culture.
But this family is a family of rabid, venom-spitting lefties who will not tolerate you sitting there quietly. You MUST engage them when baited into their political discussion traps. Doing so will only end in their blowing their stack, and NOT allowing yourself to become baited only makes them madder.
I'm sure we've all known this ilk, but these people are from the left side of Mars, and they don't quit. Tends to make a body a little testy sometimes. I do everything I can to avoid the media and their agenda before coming here and not be annoyed, and pass that annoyance along, where it does not belong. Thanks, friends--HTF

removed account4 · Apr 11, 2013

hi noacronym

you changed your nickname!

if you get a subscription
you can rant all you like in the soapbox

noacronym · Apr 11, 2013

Don't wanna rant. I changed it because the old name became synonymous with that sort of thing, IMO. So I got rid of anything Yahoo news was hammering me with, and came back on with a better attitude. The Yahoo mail page I had splattered your eyes with total lunacy. I can get that sort of thing from my wingding step sister. Hey--just laugh. And since you're an advertiser, I'll consider myself duly advised.
I guess my whole point is--enjoy your photography. Don't get too tied up in The Agenda to demonize yourself or the suppliers of these materials to become activists believing you're "destroying the earth". You're not, because you can't. This old world has miraculous ways of healing itself, and providing more.

StoneNYC · Apr 12, 2013

noacronym said:
Don't wanna rant. I changed it because the old name became synonymous with that sort of thing, IMO. So I got rid of anything Yahoo news was hammering me with, and came back on with a better attitude. The Yahoo mail page I had splattered your eyes with total lunacy. I can get that sort of thing from my wingding step sister. Hey--just laugh. And since you're an advertiser, I'll consider myself duly advised.
I guess my whole point is--enjoy your photography. Don't get too tied up in The Agenda to demonize yourself or the suppliers of these materials to become activists believing you're "destroying the earth". You're not, because you can't. This old world has miraculous ways of healing itself, and providing more.

You seem to be doing nothing BUT ranting... Haha

You're worse than me! And that's saying something

*Now back to your regularly scheduled forum*

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

noacronym · Apr 12, 2013

Thanks Stone. Good to hear a laugh. These eco-alarmists have made for a very tension-filled discourse. It's a militant religion. And good will and humor, geniality; is met with venom and yelling. They'll tear apart their own families over it. And it's so intellectually devoid. OK. enough. Enjoy the photography and damn the torpedoes.

StoneNYC · Apr 12, 2013

noacronym said:
Thanks Stone. Good to hear a laugh. These eco-alarmists have made for a very tension-filled discourse. It's a militant religion. And good will and humor, geniality; is met with venom and yelling. They'll tear apart their own families over it. And it's so intellectually devoid. OK. enough. Enjoy the photography and damn the torpedoes.

My grandfather started and owned a Dry Cleaners for 40 years.

He dumped the used perc (perchlorethylene) behind the business for 40 years before he sold it, but still owned the property, went to sell the property only to discover the perk was now considered EPA's most wanted list of bad chemicals. At the time he started his business, the world had no idea that Perc was "bad for the environment" and yes we spent over 10 years and spent over $1,000,000 to clean it up. It's still not done but we've been released to a private cleanup company and out from under the government thumb.

But ya know what, it IS bad stuff, and back then when we had it, we didn't know.

What I encourage you to do is talk to John (Janannana [i can never remember how to spell his handle] on here) and learn about the dangers of all this stuff both for you and your family, and you might change your tune about the government being silly with its environmental laws.

Just because we got used to doing something stupid our whole lives (like pouring fixer down the drain) doesn't mean we have to continue just because we got used to being lazy.

Most towns will gladly take it from you, it's usually part of the taxes you pay, so take advantage of it.

Or talk to John about his silver recovery, you could actually make a few bucks off of it

Just my opinion, not a left wing but, just a concerned human.

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

noacronym · Apr 12, 2013

My life is different, thank God. All I have to do is not be stupid and poison my own well or sterilize the septic tank. So my gallon a year of fixer gets poured out on some tree stump I want to kill. Most likely a sweet gum. I like being an ex-city boy. Wish these big farm businesses would quit bulldozing 150 year old perfectly good barns. I'm going to run out of things to shoot. Shooting film is way more fun than shooting possums stealing the kitten's food. Cameras don't kick, and it's way more fun.

Toffle · Apr 12, 2013

noacronym said:
Shooting film is way more fun than shooting possums stealing the kitten's food. Cameras don't kick, and it's way more fun.

Oh, my! You are new here. There are many threads here on the comparative kick of different cameras. My Rollei is soft, quiet and efficient - like a sniper, while my GS-1 kicks like a shotgun and is loud enough to startle wildlife in the woods.

It's all in fun my friend.

Tom

removed account4 · Apr 12, 2013

noacronym said:
My life is different, thank God. All I have to do is not be stupid and poison my own well or sterilize the septic tank. So my gallon a year of fixer gets poured out on some tree stump I want to kill. Most likely a sweet gum. I like being an ex-city boy. Wish these big farm businesses would quit bulldozing 150 year old perfectly good barns. I'm going to run out of things to shoot. Shooting film is way more fun than shooting possums stealing the kitten's food. Cameras don't kick, and it's way more fun.

if you are worried about your well ...
they say all roads lead to rome ..
the tree stump works like a wick leading down to the water ..

i don't like possums either, they is one ugly beast ..
my graflex slr is pretty silent, at least when you remove the lens cap
otherwise it makes a heck of a racket ..

StoneNYC · Apr 12, 2013

noacronym said:
My life is different, thank God. All I have to do is not be stupid and poison my own well or sterilize the septic tank. So my gallon a year of fixer gets poured out on some tree stump I want to kill. Most likely a sweet gum. I like being an ex-city boy. Wish these big farm businesses would quit bulldozing 150 year old perfectly good barns. I'm going to run out of things to shoot. Shooting film is way more fun than shooting possums stealing the kitten's food. Cameras don't kick, and it's way more fun.

Are you serious?

You honestly pour it into the ground? I guess my story about my grandfather didn't really get heard... PLEASE consider driving down to your local dump and giving them the fixer... I mean, just pour it into a milk bottle and drive it over, it's not too hard and really terrible for the environment (and your well) to pour it into the ground... Please... For us all...

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

nworth · Apr 12, 2013

polyglot said:
The problem is not so much the thiosulfate but the silver. It's a biocide and will have a negative effect on the bacterial populations in your sewage processing plant, reducing its capacity to ferment and make safe the raw sewage. The magnitude of the effect depends on how big the plant is - a gallon of fixer might be nothing or it might significantly damage the plant. If you have a septic tank, a gallon of used fixer will be a serious problem for you...

Those small amounts of silver would not pose any problem to any treatment plant for a community bigger than a hamlet (that term actually has a legal definition in New Mexico), unless there was an awful large amount of silver laden effluent. For septic tank users, silver recovery using steel wool is a simple expedient. I once almost (but not quite) shut down a small community waste treatment plant when I disposed of several pounds of outdated antibiotics from hospital supplies. Nobody thought of the effect on the waste treatment system. Fortunately, both the civil engineer and the bioenvironmental engineer for the plant were good friends. The bioenvironmental engineer told me about problems with decreased activity, and I told him about the disposal. We worked things out. For a moderate sized city, that amount of potent antibiotics would not have made any difference at all, but for this small community plant, it did. The point is that it takes a fair amount of antibacterial action to interfere with a waste treatment plant. But what goes down the drain adds up. That's why the waste treatment people put limits, usually based on total sewage volume from your facility, on what you can dump. The problem comes when politicians start making rules for things they do not understand.

noacronym · Apr 12, 2013

Toffle said:
Oh, my! You are new here. There are many threads here on the comparative kick of different cameras. My Rollei is soft, quiet and efficient - like a sniper, while my GS-1 kicks like a shotgun and is loud enough to startle wildlife in the woods.

It's all in fun my friend.

Tom

Yeah, it IS fun--getting out with the camera and shooting. Wish the big farm companies would quit bulldozing all these barns though.
Pouring my gallon of fixer on a sweetgum stump is a better choice. I'd have to burn up 10 gallons of gas to carry it to somebody. Burning all that gas kills the earth.

MartinP · Apr 12, 2013

The only reason you can pour it is because the stuff is almost completely water. Let the water evaporate - end of problem, as the milligrams of solid matter will be fine in the normal refuse collection. I have already suggested that in this thread.

StoneNYC · Apr 12, 2013

MartinP said:
The only reason you can pour it is because the stuff is almost completely water. Let the water evaporate - end of problem, as the milligrams of solid matter will be fine in the normal refuse collection. I have already suggested that in this thread.

Aren't the fumes from fixer pretty toxic? How do you let it evaporate and not die? Lol

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

Used Sodium Thiosulfate disposal

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