Urgent inquiry: Can (Bleach) cause chromatic aberration?

mohmad khatab · Mar 2, 2020

Urgent inquiry: Can (Bleach) cause chromatic aberration?

There is a cultural center in Cairo that specializes in picture art in general and analog photography in particular.
This center provides acidification and scanning services for an amateur fee ,,,
- They had a deficiency in the availability of (Bleach), but the rest of the acids were abundant, they asked for my help in this matter, and I provided (Bleach Quinone) because its raw materials are readily available at a very reasonable price.
- This happened a few months ago - and things are fine.
- But perhaps the success of this cultural center in providing dark room services at reasonable prices, this disturbed some other snakes.
- This is a picture from a movie that was treated in this cultural center that I am providing them with bleach quinone.
The question is: is the bleach solution the cause of this chromatic aberration.?
A customer sent me that picture and complained that the picture color was not good and the skin color was not normal.
- This client is basically suspicious of him, and suspicions revolve around him. Perhaps one of the spies (the biggest snake) will be the archenemy of anyone who provides acidification service in Egypt, and he only wants to control the Egyptian market.
But regardless of this possibility or not.
I want to know :
Is bleach quinone the cause?
Is the old developer the reason?
- Is scanning the cause?
May God bless you all. I want answers to these inquiries urgently

kevs · Mar 2, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
Urgent inquiry: Can (Bleach) cause chromatic aberration?

No. Chromatic aberration is an optical phenomenon that occurs when a lens cannot focus all wavelengths of light at the same point. Chromatic aberration is not caused by film processing chemistry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration

mohmad khatab said:
<snipped>

But regardless of this possibility or not.
I want to know :
Is bleach quinone the cause?
Is the old developer the reason?
- Is scanning the cause?

1. I don't know.
2. I don't know.
3. Perhaps; to cause this effect the scanner must be way out of alignment. Maybe the operator wasn't paying attention.

You say this is a frame from a movie; do you know what filmstock was used? How was it processed? It might have accidentally been cross-processed in the wrong chemicals, like an E6 film processed in C-41 or ECN-2 chems. Or it could be a tungsten-balanced filmstock (3,200 °k) that was exposed in daylight (5,500 °K), causing the strong cyan / blue cast. I'm sure someone who is more experienced with movie filmstocks will be able to help you more than I can.

Good luck

koraks · Mar 3, 2020

Please share additional details on the film stock used and the processing sequence and chemistry. Please also provide the formula of the bleach used; a "quinone" bleach is something I've never heard of.

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

koraks said:
Please share additional details on the film stock used and the processing sequence and chemistry. Please also provide the formula of the bleach used; a "quinone" bleach is something I've never heard of.

Yes, I asked the prank customer to send me all the negative ,,
C41
Quinone Bleach
Water 110-120F 800 ml
Glacial acetic acid. 15 ml
CH 3 COONa (sodium acetate) 3.5 g
Potassium persulfate 10.0 g
Potassium bromide 10 g
Hydroquinone 0.75 g
Copper sulfate pentahydrate 0.5 g
Water to make 1 liter

Adrian Bacon · Mar 3, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
Urgent inquiry: Can (Bleach) cause chromatic aberration?

There is a cultural center in Cairo that specializes in picture art in general and analog photography in particular.
This center provides acidification and scanning services for an amateur fee ,,,
- They had a deficiency in the availability of (Bleach), but the rest of the acids were abundant, they asked for my help in this matter, and I provided (Bleach Quinone) because its raw materials are readily available at a very reasonable price.
- This happened a few months ago - and things are fine.
- But perhaps the success of this cultural center in providing dark room services at reasonable prices, this disturbed some other snakes.
- This is a picture from a movie that was treated in this cultural center that I am providing them with bleach quinone.
The question is: is the bleach solution the cause of this chromatic aberration.?
A customer sent me that picture and complained that the picture color was not good and the skin color was not normal.
- This client is basically suspicious of him, and suspicions revolve around him. Perhaps one of the spies (the biggest snake) will be the archenemy of anyone who provides acidification service in Egypt, and he only wants to control the Egyptian market.
But regardless of this possibility or not.
I want to know :
Is bleach quinone the cause?
Is the old developer the reason?
- Is scanning the cause?
May God bless you all. I want answers to these inquiries urgently

that almost looks like tungsten balanced film shot in daylight, and then very badly scanned and color corrected.

that being said, I’ve never heard of a quinone bleach... not sure what you mean by that.

koraks · Mar 3, 2020

I understand this is an alternative bleach that is discussed in e.g. publications on holography. I have no experience with it, but I'd be inclined to stick to a more conventional bleach for color processing. I do acknowledge that there are problems with getting certain chemicals such as EDTA/PDTA or even potassium ferricyanide which preclude the use of a more conventional bleach. Given this situation, I think I'd personally lean towards testing with a simple copper sulfate/potassium bromide bleach, or even a dichromate based bleach (if dichromate is available). The latter would require thorough clearing (eg using a sulfite bath) before subsequent processing steps (fix & wash). No guarantees on compatibility with such bleaches and color negative material however; this is quite beyond the recommended processing chemistry for such film stocks.

In any case, with all these alternative bleach recipes, I would recommend a stop bath after the developer step, followed by thorough washing before bleach, and a very thorough wash after the bleach as well.

Concerning the developer; you state a c41 developer is used, but is the film stock also a c41 film and not e.g. ecn-2 movie film stock? Color shifts and crossover can be anticipated when deceloping ecn2 films in c41 developer, although usually of a different nature than the example shown in this thread.

I also underline the earlier comments about the possible use of a tungsten balanced film under daylight conditions, which will without the appropriate filters result in a severe shift towards cool/blue tones.

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
that almost looks like tungsten balanced film shot in daylight, and then very badly scanned and color corrected.

that being said, I’ve never heard of a quinone bleach... not sure what you mean by that.

Thank you very much, Professor Adrian, may God bless you.
You might have put your hand at the heart of the problem.
- I inquired from the cunning customer Snake, and he told me that the roller had been cleared by Noretsu at the Kodak branch,
- I told him, "I do not trust this talk. I want to hold the roller with my hand and go with it to do a new scan by Noritsu with my hand." He said he had no time.
You're right, Mr. Adrian.
The bleaching quinone is also right, and it is a great, wonderful, cheap and extremely strong bleacher, and he was one of two major bleaching solutions approved for the process for the process (E4) and it had a secret substance that Kodak did not disclose, and the eastern Germans added hydroquinone Instead of that mysterious matter and it worked, it became a wonderful bleach that provides high-resolution images at a very cheap cost.

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

koraks said:
I understand this is an alternative bleach that is discussed in e.g. publications on holography. I have no experience with it, but I'd be inclined to stick to a more conventional bleach for color processing. I do acknowledge that there are problems with getting certain chemicals such as EDTA/PDTA or even potassium ferricyanide which preclude the use of a more conventional bleach. Given this situation, I think I'd personally lean towards testing with a simple copper sulfate/potassium bromide bleach, or even a dichromate based bleach (if dichromate is available). The latter would require thorough clearing (eg using a sulfite bath) before subsequent processing steps (fix & wash). No guarantees on compatibility with such bleaches and color negative material however; this is quite beyond the recommended processing chemistry for such film stocks.

In any case, with all these alternative bleach recipes, I would recommend a stop bath after the developer step, followed by thorough washing before bleach, and a very thorough wash after the bleach as well.

Yes ,,
We do a stop bath before and a cleansing bath after bleach.
Things are going well with quinone bleaching solution, a very old and very traditional recipe,
Everything just has a somewhat pungent smell that smells like gasoline a little bit ,,,
I have not invented that formula, it has been available for 50 years or more, and it is the first alternative to potassium free cyanide being environmentally friendly.
- But he did not get enough month, as iron candida and aluminum (EDTA) managed to get the most attention in a short period.
Quinone Bleach
cf. R. Chapman, Darkroom Techniques, Jan / Feb and Mar / April 1987, SMPTE Journal, Feb. 1986
(Keiler and Polakowski), and D. Neville, SuperBull # 33, p. 10 1987. See also Photog. Processes, The
Chemistry of Photography Vol. II (Preston Publ .: Niles, IL) 1987 for a more detailed discussion. This
bleach works very well for C-41 and E-6 films.
Water 110-120F 800 ml
Glacial acetic acid. 15 ml
CH 3 COONa (sodium acetate) 3.5 g
Potassium persulfate 10.0 g
Potassium bromide 10 g
Hydroquinone 0.75 g
Copper sulfate pentahydrate 0.5 g
Water to make 1 liter
Set pH 3.5-4.0 @ 75-77F Allow at least 6 hours for oxidation to quinone before using.
Caution: formulation is potentially toxic for quinone poisoning that affects the cornea, use appropriate
mitigation. Avoid inhaling fumes. Avoid contact with skin. Use only in ventilated darkrooms. Not
recommended for tray processing.
Notes: Kodak process ECP-2A for color negative motion picture film type 5385 specifies a persulfate
bleach. The formula given here is different. It originated in the former GDR (East Germany) about
1978-79. I have used this bleach for C-41 and E-6 films with good result. It is excellent, clean
working bleach for C41 and E6 films.

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
that almost looks like tungsten balanced film shot in daylight, and then very badly scanned and color corrected.

that being said, I’ve never heard of a quinone bleach... not sure what you mean by that.

My brother Adrian ,,
I called the lab technician and told me that the movie was (Kodak Ultra Max 400) an expired film and was refrigerated by the seller.
Have a comment.

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

kevs said:
No. Chromatic aberration is an optical phenomenon that occurs when a lens cannot focus all wavelengths of light at the same point. Chromatic aberration is not caused by film processing chemistry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration

1. I don't know.
2. I don't know.
3. Perhaps; to cause this effect the scanner must be way out of alignment. Maybe the operator wasn't paying attention.

You say this is a frame from a movie; do you know what filmstock was used? How was it processed? It might have accidentally been cross-processed in the wrong chemicals, like an E6 film processed in C-41 or ECN-2 chems. Or it could be a tungsten-balanced filmstock (3,200 °k) that was exposed in daylight (5,500 °K), causing the strong cyan / blue cast. I'm sure someone who is more experienced with movie filmstocks will be able to help you more than I can.

Good luck

Teacher, thanks for your kind response.
This is a film treated with (C41) acids produced by Titanl Machinery Company (JOBO) except bleach solution. I have prepared it as I explained (bleach quinone).

I called the lab technician and told me that the movie was (Kodak Ultra Max 400) an expired film and was refrigerated by the seller.
Have a comment.

koraks · Mar 3, 2020

Well, I haven't tried it, so I can't comment on possible problems with this approach. But if you have tried it successfully, that says enough.

As to the problem with the picture you posted, I suppose there are many possible causes or even a combination of causes:
* retention of silver or silver halides as a result of insufficient bleaching and/or fixing
* certain dyes (particularly cyan) remaining in leuko state resulting in severe color shifts; verify if the pH of the last concentrated bath (typically the fixing bath) is around 6.5 and in any case not too low (<5 or so).
* mismatch between light and film type (e.g. tungsten film used in daylight) - this should not be the case if Ultramax was used as it's a daylight film
* use of very old and/or poorly stored film; you mention it's expired Ultramax and this could be (part of) the problem. Faster films generally don't age as well as slower films. As to refrigeration, we can only hope/assume that sellers are truthful when they say the film was refrigerated, but in reality we never know for sure what the storage conditions throughout the entire lifetime of the film have been. A seller who tossed the film into the fridge for a week before selling it is still truthful when they say it has been refrigerated, even if the film has spent years sitting in a warm room prior to being refrigerated for a brief period of time...
* problems with scanning; anything can go wrong in terms of color and contrast when digital post processing is involved.

The way I see it, there seem to be two problems with the example image: dramatically incorrect color balance and excessive contrast. Have a look at the negatives themselves and compare them with correctly exposed and processed film strips that you know are of good quality to see what differences you can spot. I would also recommend trying to re-bleach and fix a few negatives to see if that changes the nature of the images.

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

koraks said:
Well, I haven't tried it, so I can't comment on possible problems with this approach. But if you have tried it successfully, that says enough.

As to the problem with the picture you posted, I suppose there are many possible causes or even a combination of causes:
* retention of silver or silver halides as a result of insufficient bleaching and/or fixing
* certain dyes (particularly cyan) remaining in leuko state resulting in severe color shifts; verify if the pH of the last concentrated bath (typically the fixing bath) is around 6.5 and in any case not too low (<5 or so).
* mismatch between light and film type (e.g. tungsten film used in daylight) - this should not be the case if Ultramax was used as it's a daylight film
* use of very old and/or poorly stored film; you mention it's expired Ultramax and this could be (part of) the problem. Faster films generally don't age as well as slower films. As to refrigeration, we can only hope/assume that sellers are truthful when they say the film was refrigerated, but in reality we never know for sure what the storage conditions throughout the entire lifetime of the film have been. A seller who tossed the film into the fridge for a week before selling it is still truthful when they say it has been refrigerated, even if the film has spent years sitting in a warm room prior to being refrigerated for a brief period of time...
* problems with scanning; anything can go wrong in terms of color and contrast when digital post processing is involved.

The way I see it, there seem to be two problems with the example image: dramatically incorrect color balance and excessive contrast. Have a look at the negatives themselves and compare them with correctly exposed and processed film strips that you know are of good quality to see what differences you can spot. I would also recommend trying to re-bleach and fix a few negatives to see if that changes the nature of the images.

I am very happy with this comprehensive response ,,
God bless you, Professor Kriakos.
Greetings to Greece and to all the brotherly people of Greece,
God bless you and you ..
I advise you to try bleach quinone ,, you will fall in love immediately.

koraks · Mar 3, 2020

You're very kind, Mohmad, thank you for your kind words. And if the opportunity presents itself, I will certainly give the quinone bleach a try. It certainly sounds interesting. I don't currently have any potassium persulfate at hand, but I may order some when I get round to it.

Good luck with troubleshooting the problem and please keep us posted if you find anything!

Anon Ymous · Mar 3, 2020

If anyone is interested in using a quinone bleach, then very good ventilation is a must. I've synthesized quinone in the past, in small quantity, and it was one of the most irritating, acrid smelling compounds I've ever dealt with. FWIW, PE commented in the past that it's an effective bleach, but care must be taken when using it.

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

koraks said:
You're very kind, Mohmad, thank you for your kind words. And if the opportunity presents itself, I will certainly give the quinone bleach a try. It certainly sounds interesting. I don't currently have any potassium persulfate at hand, but I may order some when I get round to it.

Good luck with troubleshooting the problem and please keep us posted if you find anything!

In fact ,, I’m happy to know you ,,
In fact, I am very sympathetic to some immersive bleaching solutions and I seek to use them, especially those inexpensive formulas.
Copper bleach is also a very great bleach but unfortunately was misused and tampered with its original formula that was designed by Agfa a century ago, so problems have occurred as a result of that of the modified formula ,,, but the original formula ,, I am tired a lot until I reach it and actually work in a way Very cool, very amazing, and very cheap, the cheapest bleaching crop in the world, (but you need a solution that stops before and after bleaching, provided that each of the solutions is different from the other and this means that we will use two auxiliary solutions one before and one after bleaching )
This is the original version
It is a formula that very little is known in the world.
AGFA Copper bleach
Deionized water 700ml 52C
Pot. Alum........................20g
Sid. sulfate.......................25g sulfate not sulfite
Copper sulfate..................40g
pot. bromide .....................20g
sulfuric Acid (Conc)............5 ml
water Up to ...................... 1 L

mohmad khatab · Mar 3, 2020

Anon Ymous said:
If anyone is interested in using a quinone bleach, then very good ventilation is a must. I've synthesized quinone in the past, in small quantity, and it was one of the most irritating, acrid smelling compounds I've ever dealt with. FWIW, PE commented in the past that it's an effective bleach, but care must be taken when using it.

Yes, yes, God bless you, thanks for the advice.
Engineer Rudi (Austrian) has banned me a lot from that smell, and made me distract my eyes from preparing this wonderful bleach for two months or more.
- But at the end of the day, I decided to try it no matter what smells ...
In fact, I did not feel that this smell really deserved all this intimidation.
Yes, it is true that there is a slight odor-like smell, but it is not that dangerous that is being imaged.
It is a scent that can be accepted by most people (I think).
-

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 4, 2020

Mohmad, what's the capacity of the quinone bleach? And what's the shelf life?

Adrian Bacon · Mar 4, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
My brother Adrian ,,
I called the lab technician and told me that the movie was (Kodak Ultra Max 400) an expired film and was refrigerated by the seller.
Have a comment.

Ultramax 400 is a c-41 daylight balanced film. It will render neutral color under 5000K-6000K light. So, tungsten film shot under daylight is out as a possible cause. A Noritsu should have a color profile for Ultramax 400 as it's been in production for a very long time, so if it looks that way because of the way it was scanned, then whoever scanned it either picked the wrong color profile, or doesn't know how to use the scanner.

Adrian Bacon · Mar 4, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
Teacher, thanks for your kind response.
This is a film treated with (C41) acids produced by Titanl Machinery Company (JOBO) except bleach solution. I have prepared it as I explained (bleach quinone).

I called the lab technician and told me that the movie was (Kodak Ultra Max 400) an expired film and was refrigerated by the seller.
Have a comment.

There are two primary issues: The contrast is way off, and there's a color cast.

A third issue is that the saturation is a bit much. This has me thinking that the images are probably not scanned right. It might be the bleach, I doubt it's the film that is expired. Expired film generally shows a shifting color cast across the frame and really bad granularity along with super low contrast, and this has the opposite of that.

mohmad khatab · Mar 5, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Mohmad, what's the capacity of the quinone bleach? And what's the shelf life?

Theoretically, there is no reliable academic information on this matter.
Practically: using a JOBO machine, 24 were processed using one liter. In fact, the life of this solution is rather short, and from the moment of first use it can live for a maximum of two months.
- Noticeable :
It happened once that I lasted more than two months ,, and there were deposits of it ,,, and the next day the deposits melted on their own without a convincing reason.

mohmad khatab · Mar 5, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
There are two primary issues: The contrast is way off, and there's a color cast.

A third issue is that the saturation is a bit much. This has me thinking that the images are probably not scanned right. It might be the bleach, I doubt it's the film that is expired. Expired film generally shows a shifting color cast across the frame and really bad granularity along with super low contrast, and this has the opposite of that.

This image is false ,,
You know that JOBO has the ability to process eight rolls at once.
- This roll was in eight rolls, eight rolls owned by eight different customers,
- All the other films that were scanned were reviewed, and all films are of the utmost beauty and splendor.
This means that this customer is truly a fool, despicable, trouble-free, and rewarded, as well as a spy, ignorant and stupid.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, my dear brother, the respected Mr. Adrian ,, God bless you.

mohmad khatab · Mar 5, 2020

Adrian Bacon said:
There are two primary issues: The contrast is way off, and there's a color cast.

A third issue is that the saturation is a bit much. This has me thinking that the images are probably not scanned right. It might be the bleach, I doubt it's the film that is expired. Expired film generally shows a shifting color cast across the frame and really bad granularity along with super low contrast, and this has the opposite of that.

My dear brother, Mr. Adrian
Please - How can I get the data sheet for this film Ultramax 400

kevs · Mar 5, 2020

Here it is Mohmad: 245.3kb, PDF format:
http://apps.kodakmoments.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/E7023_max_400.pdf

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Mar 6, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
Theoretically, there is no reliable academic information on this matter.
Practically: using a JOBO machine, 24 were processed using one liter. In fact, the life of this solution is rather short, and from the moment of first use it can live for a maximum of two months.
- Noticeable :
It happened once that I lasted more than two months ,, and there were deposits of it ,,, and the next day the deposits melted on their own without a convincing reason.

Thanks for sharing Mohmad. By any chance have you used Quinone bleach in reversal processing of B&W film? Any experiences and insights you can share on this?

Adrian Bacon · Mar 6, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
My dear brother, Mr. Adrian
Please - How can I get the data sheet for this film Ultramax 400

kevs said:
Here it is Mohmad: 245.3kb, PDF format:
http://apps.kodakmoments.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/E7023_max_400.pdf

@kevs you beat me to it. That's the one.

Urgent inquiry: Can (Bleach) cause chromatic aberration?

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