Update from Jobo RE the CPP3 at photokina

Just got this email today with some more info regarding the projected Jobo CPP3 processor scheduled to be shown at photokina:

JOBO introduces CPP-3 processor at photokina 2012.

The family of analogue photographers enjoys a steady membership
around the globe and pro-labs are continuing to decline in numbers.
The new CPP-3 processor offers repeatable high quality film
processing, using the tried- and-tested technology of rotary processing:
• Automatic agitation
• Automatic temperature control
• Freshness of chemical solutions (one shot processing)
• Economical usage of solutions, for intermittent work
• Processing time control
CPP-3 is an improved version of JOBO’s Colorprocessor CPP-2. It is
compatible with all JOBO film tanks and print drums and suitable for all kinds of silver halide films
and prints. With the JOBO Lift mounted on the processor it makes for easy and clean handling of
working solutions. These solutions can be conveniently held ready for use, in six individual one litre
bottles, each positioned securely in the water jacket.


See the full press release PDF attached here.
I can try to answer some questions if any one has them about this.
In any case - more good news, stuff is moving in the right direction!

That's close to US$3500 for the kit. What kind of tech/service support is there for US/Canada presently?

Can't help but think they're a bit late to the party.

CGW said:

That's close to US$3500 for the kit. What kind of tech/service support is there for US/Canada presently?

Can't help but think they're a bit late to the party.

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The US price may be different due to shipping and supply reasons (higher or lower).

Don't know what the plan for US Dist/after sales support is yet, but i will be at photokina and will be able perhaps to come back with better answers regarding that question.
Jobo is planning a 115V production of the unit, but according to them, it will be available later then the 220V machine.

What do you mean by late to the party?

krifartida said:

The US price may be different due to shipping and supply reasons (higher or lower).

Don't know what the plan for US Dist/after sales support is yet, but i will be at photokina and will be able perhaps to come back with better answers regarding that question.
Jobo is planning a 115V production of the unit, but according to them, it will be available later then the 220V machine.

What do you mean by late to the party?

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Late by a few years, especially with the future demand situation for film. Isn't this also what's likely behind the silence from Plustek on the new 120 film scanner that's yet to appear?

Sheeeesh! "Late to the party," indeed! What is with you guys? And the price? 437 or so rolls of film processed, and it's paid for itself. Of course, if you don't shoot that much in two or three years, I can understand that you'd regard the price as a bit steep.

The ATL series isn't manufactured any longer, and this processor is the only new Jobo unit available. Argh, the name escapes me, but there's another automated or semi-automated unit, and its price is also "high."

(grumble "late to the party" someone might think you want Jobo dead grumble)

Late? They're early.

This product is clearly aimed at the future, bottomed-out, film processing market. It's a lower-volume development unit to serve as a scaled-down replacement for all those larger labs that are shutting down for lack of volume. That it happens to be an updated older, proven product saves on all kinds of R&D and tooling expense. It's a lot like Ilford's advantage of having scaled down plants that can economically produce at today's lower volumes compared to the gigantic Kodak dinosaurs.

pbromaghin said:

Late? They're early.

This product is clearly aimed at the future, bottomed-out, film processing market. It's a lower-volume development unit to serve as a scaled-down replacement for all those larger labs that are shutting down for lack of volume. That it happens to be an updated older, proven product saves on all kinds of R&D and tooling expense. It's a lot like Ilford's advantage of having scaled down plants that can economically produce at today's lower volumes compared to the gigantic Kodak dinosaurs.

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The larger labs--even smaller Fuji/Noritsu Walmart/Costco/Big Box of choice minilabs--closed film service for lack of customers. Close to 4 large is way steep for most casual shooters who can handle small volume processing for peanuts. JOBOs weren't exactly strong sellers 5 years ago.

It's price may be steep, but, how many non-pros are there, who can't wait to drop big $$$ on the latest, greatest, piece of gear that will make them the next "Big Pro"? A Lot! I can't believe how many non-pros compare their D4's, or whether they want to buy the D800 or the D800E, fast lenses, etc, on other sites. If you look at the list of gear that they claim to own, it leaves you wondering, how bad is the world economy really in :confused:

There are at least three dedicated Jobo service stations in the US that i know of at this moment.
Jobo have mentioned they are working on a 115V CPP3 for the US market, not sure if it will be released at the same time as the 220V machines.

Jobo ATL machines are available as fully refurbished units, later models are even available new, CPP2 have and are available new, so is the CPE2 (though the price makes it a non issue for most\all).

pbr* is right - the idea of this new production is geared towards extremely small capacity runs, with the lowest possible amounts of chemicals needed for 1 or each roll in the system, as well as the ability to reuse some of the chemical components. That said, as we all know the Jobo is a modular system and on the CPP machine this means you can reach very high capacity volumes, the same as in any large ATL machine, with out the need for endless and complex pumps, motors and space and size limitations of the larger machines.
Not to mention the CPP2 has a 30 year history and the CPP3 will be improving some of the known issues, and adding new features. (most likely also creating some new issues to overcome, but thats with any new product).

Brian is also right, this price dictates that it will become cost effective after the first 400 rolls run through it. I guess after participating in APUG threads for more then a year now i realized that even for some "serious" shooters in this day and age, 20 rolls is a A LOT.

That does not mean folks shouldent team up and go commune style and pool their resources for the purchase of a Jobo machine (new or used). And besides any price tag shouldent be an issue for people who can spend 10 bucks a shot or more in 11X14 or whatever ULF.

CGW said:

The larger labs--even smaller Fuji/Noritsu Walmart/Costco/Big Box of choice minilabs--closed film service for lack of customers. Close to 4 large is way steep for most casual shooters who can handle small volume processing for peanuts. JOBOs weren't exactly strong sellers 5 years ago.

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5 years ago digital cameras and film processing labs were in a hugely different state, status and customer base.

As someone noted - the whole world economic crisis seems to be just a slogan for some cause, judging by the way people are spending their money on what would be an esoteric\hobby\niche thing even 10 years ago.

krifartida said:

5 years ago digital cameras and film processing labs were in a hugely different state, status and customer base.

As someone noted - the whole world economic crisis seems to be just a slogan for some cause, judging by the way people are spending their money on what would be an esoteric\hobby\niche thing even 10 years ago.

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Exactly. So what makes the outlook rosier for JOBO--if that's your point? Still lots of $ soaked up by photography, just not analog photography in my area.

According to the press release, and what i have been seeing personally in the past 2 years there has been an exceptional rise in demand for Jobo gear, for which ever reason.
They are calling it "record" sales in the press release. I guess if your last year sales were 0, then any sales are a record number, though the demand is there.

Why now, why this machine, why this price range\market - are all good questions i have not an answer for. But I do not think we are looking at a mass production to feed a massive global demand, rather a precise production to meet the demand of the existing market, along with support, that is part of a revitalizing of the analog market in general, which is something that we read about in that article a few months ago, about the new business model of the film industry (see lomo, ilford, kodak...).

Why is tetenal coming back to production and distribution in the US? who knows, its not like they were selling en mass before they stopped about 2 years ago, but i guess they have re strategized their market plan to create a more sustainable economic system to sell their products.

Only time will tell weather or not these moves by Jobo or tetenal meant anything or were just a cough in long history of the demise of film.

Update from Jobo RE: the CPP# at Photokina

Now that Jobo is putting out a new processor and have service depots in the US, does that mean that current owners of Jobo processors, myself included, will be able to get parts and service eventually or will we have to fend for ourselves ??.

Doug

It has been noted here in several threads that film sales have bottomed and are actually on a bit of an upswing. Combine that fact with the previously noted demise in commercial labs, and there are a lot of people who would be willing to fork over $3500 for a home lab instead of having to ship their film to New York or LA from Outer Kalamazoo and wait ten days to get it back. You can save that $3500 pretty quick on lab fees and shipping charges if you're doing any kind of volume, or you're doing odd sizes like 5x12 sheet film.

spoolman said:

Now that Jobo is putting out a new processor and have service depots in the US, does that mean that current owners of Jobo processors, myself included, will be able to get parts and service eventually or will we have to fend for ourselves ??.

Doug

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Regardless of weather or no Jobo actually ever goes into production of a new machine - spare parts are available now, have been and will be on a regular basis form a USA based supplier - just google "Jobo parts" - the first result is a service and spare part supply for Jobo machines. Easy.

CGW said:

Exactly. So what makes the outlook rosier for JOBO--if that's your point? Still lots of $ soaked up by photography, just not analog photography in my area.

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You so often forget, when this subject comes up, that your area is not everywhere and everywhere is not like your area. All the labs are not closed down where I live, nor are they where many Apuggers live. These Jobo units can serve well as part of an analog line of business for a multi-service, mostly digital photo store that cannot justify using the larger machines any more. You seem to think that the only way anything can be done is big, full time and in mass quantities, or it can't be done at all. That's just pure, out-and-out nonsense, as millions and millions of small business people around the world know.

Right-sized Ilford will be stomping on clumsy giant Kodak's grave. Fuji has made the transition to a right-sized film division surrounded by technologically related businesses where Kodak fumbled and failed, building a gigantic high-volume plant at just the wrong time. Kodak then proceeded to actively wreck their old business, not only before succeeding in anything new, but while failing in almost everything new. Not everybody in the film business is that colossally stupid.

pbromaghin said:

You so often forget, when this subject comes up, that your area is not everywhere and everywhere is not like your area. All the labs are not closed down where I live, nor are they where many Apuggers live. These Jobo units can serve well as part of an analog line of business for a multi-service, mostly digital photo store that cannot justify using the larger machines any more. You seem to think that the only way anything can be done is big, full time and in mass quantities, or it can't be done at all. That's just pure, out-and-out nonsense, as millions and millions of small business people around the world know.

Right-sized Ilford will be stomping on clumsy giant Kodak's grave. Fuji has made the transition to a right-sized film division surrounded by technologically related businesses where Kodak fumbled and failed, building a gigantic high-volume plant at just the wrong time. Kodak then proceeded to actively wreck their old business, not only before succeeding in anything new, but while failing in almost everything new. Not everybody in the film business is that colossally stupid.

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We seem to be back where we started in early 2012 with denial of what led to Kodak's bankruptcy filing--a decade-long collapse in demand for film products and services. Labs closed or shut-down film services for lack of customers. A new JOBO in the backroom won't trigger any miracles now--assuming a lab owner would gamble on a "field of dreams" style business plan. It's not matter of the film industry's intelligence but of demand for its products that's key now. Call it nonsense if you like.

JOBO might have considered a cheaper model than this one. They make a good product but may have read the tea leaves incorrectly.

CGW said:

We seem to be back where we started in early 2012 with denial of what led to Kodak's bankruptcy filing--a decade-long collapse in demand for film products and services. Labs closed or shut-down film services for lack of customers. A new JOBO in the backroom won't trigger any miracles now--assuming a lab owner would gamble on a "field of dreams" style business plan. It's not matter of the film industry's intelligence but of demand for its products that's key now. Call it nonsense if you like.

JOBO might have considered a cheaper model than this one. They make a good product but may have read the tea leaves incorrectly.

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The denial is your refusal to see that there will be a post-collapse world of film, that it is possible to be successful in it, that some are positioning themselves to do so; and your insistence that any success they have will be a miracle. I didn't say it was a matter of the industry's intelligence - there are a lot of smart failures in this world. Whether these people succeed or fail will be a matter of wisdom.

Fuji and llford have both been able to survive the collapse where Kodak was not, and they did it in vastly different ways. Ilford did it by shrinking and focusing on excellence in a narrow product line, Fuji by expanding into seemingly unrelated industries based on their chemistry and coating technology. Can anybody clearly describe Kodak's approach in as few words?

pbromaghin said:

The denial is your refusal to see that there will be a post-collapse world of film, that it is possible to be successful in it, that some are positioning themselves to do so; and your insistence that any success they have will be a miracle. I didn't say it was a matter of the industry's intelligence - there are a lot of smart failures in this world. Whether these people succeed or fail will be a matter of wisdom.

Fuji and llford have both been able to survive the collapse where Kodak was not, and they did it in vastly different ways. Ilford did it by shrinking and focusing on excellence in a narrow product line, Fuji by expanding into seemingly unrelated industries based on their chemistry and coating technology. Can anybody clearly describe Kodak's approach in as few words?

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I'm living in the cratered post-collapse present. "Last man standing" is a very chancy business strategy, especially if you're not concerned where all the competition went. Toronto is a large city with a sizeable photo community. Sad fact is, it presently supports only two surviving, first-rate pro labs with film services--Toronto Image Works and Bob Carnie's Elevator Digital. Cheap C-41 processing went with the demise of mass market 35mm shooters. So far, I'm seeing no notable(measureable?)uptick in film use. Ilford will hang on. Fuji could axe film tomorrow and never twitch.

pbromaghin said:

Fuji has made the transition to a right-sized film division

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Film sales for Fujifilm are 1% of its gross revenue. That is their "right size," i.e., just about being gone without being totally gone. I'm sure that Ilford's photographic product sales are a much larger slice of their gross revenue.

Anybody remember when the CPP-3 was first posted on this board, some people thought that it could be a hoax? I welcome the news that it's really coming. Jobo thinks that there is a market for the new machine. I don't remember the last selling price of a CPP-2, but I do remember that those machines weren't cheap, either. The processor will sell because there is a market for it. In my state, nobody processes large format color film. Nobody. I send it out to Praust in Rochester, NY. They have a snappy turn-around and do a fine job, but I'd just like to do it here, and I mean locally and conveniently. The local labs have either not done a good job or else aren't convenient, at all. This year, so far, I've spent at least $800 on film, maybe more than $1000. So yeah, there's a few of us for whom this stuff is economical.

Besides, a Nikon D800 definitely isn't in my future, not as long as I can buy film.

CGW - the fact you personally or anyone in tornoto for that matter is not seeing an uptick in film use\sales does not mean its not happening.
Lomo say they have increased sales 200% of roll films they "manufacture' (re brand) between 2009 and 2011.
Kodak is still calling the film production unit of the company one of the only sources of prfitable revenue for them with a steady albeit slow rise in the past 3 years (same period).
Wither way. even though the demand\sales of film today are marginal compared to what they were in the height of commercial film sales, there is no doubt the usage is increasing following the switch to digital that has takes place over almost a decade, and is now more or less pretty much finalized.
Who ever is buying film today is doing so out of a specific choice, which makes it a different type of market, with different aspects of customer base and dedication to particular product.

All it is, is a niche market, kind of like macrame, that is steadily growing.

All it is, is a niche market, kind of like macrame, that is steadily growing.

Lord have mercy! Words to live by--not!

I feel like it's late January 2012 again...

I feel like it's late January 2012 again... ???

The great flame war of 2012...

CGW said:

The larger labs--even smaller Fuji/Noritsu Walmart/Costco/Big Box of choice minilabs--closed film service for lack of customers. Close to 4 large is way steep for most casual shooters who can handle small volume processing for peanuts. JOBOs weren't exactly strong sellers 5 years ago.

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Some of us aren't casual shooters, I comitted to buy one early, will receive the lift for free and will be ecstatic to have it.