Upcoming shoot (August 2019)

Tim Stapp · Nov 27, 2017

Recent 4x5 convert. I've been learning on Arista EDU Ultra 200 and Ilford HP5+. I develop in XTOL rotary processed in JOBO CPE2+.

I have an upcoming portrait shoot in August 2019 of steam traction engines and their owners/operators/caretakers.

My question is: Ilford HP5+ or FP4+ ?

Ron789 · Nov 27, 2017

For this subject I would go for Tri-X in Rodinal. That will give a more "dramatic" image.

Tim Stapp · Nov 27, 2017

Given that I specified Ilford products, why suggest the Kodak??? My local supplier (I prefer to purchase through Norman Camera) only supplies Ilford products.

There will be over 50 possible "portraits" over a 4 day span. I'm looking for the most detail in the black steam traction engines more so than the skin tones of the people. The traction engines are the subject. The caretakers are an afterthought.

Also, please define "dramatic."

MattKing · Nov 27, 2017

You can most likely achieve what you are after with just about any of the usual combinations. If the shoot is that far away, you should have a good chance to experiment on similar subjects.
I would decide between those two emulsions based on action stopping and depth of field concerns - i.e. film speed.

grimp0teuthis · Nov 27, 2017

A 100-speed film will generally yield finer grain and higher sharpness. Although that points toward FP4+ (shot at box speed), it depends on the developer you use, agitation, shooting conditions, etc.

If there's a chance you'll have less than ideal light, HP5's 400 (box) ISO may be useful. Additionally, grain is much less of an issue in large format, so maybe the difference is meaningless to you. Check out some Flickr shots of each film at 4x5 in XTOL (searching in tags is helpful) and see what tradeoff you'd like to make. I think a little grain looks great on heavy machinery.

Roger2000 · Nov 27, 2017

If you use a tripod (three legs) which is the common approach with 4x5 then either should be fast enough, especially as you’ll be taking the pictures in the summer. Use them both in the meantime, preferably on steam vehicles, and see which you prefer. Good luck!

Tim Stapp · Nov 27, 2017

Good suggestions all. There are a couple of similar machines nearby that I can practice on, using my wife as a stand in (not for the steam traction engine though . I have some HP5+ and one sheet of FP4+ to test, so that will give a good start.

Definitely on a tripod!

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 27, 2017

Also, please define "dramatic."

Of you're hit by a steam train, that'll be very dramatic....

Any and either film. It is also about how you manage the light. For steam trains, deep, rich blacks that reflect the real machine's character, not shades of grey; so very many photographers record these trains in pale grey and silver when they should be black! The use of a polariser can be invaluable for this as it cuts down the spectrals, even in overcast light. Whatever other drama you want or desire in the image can be cooked up in the darkroom.

removed account4 · Nov 27, 2017

hi tim
id use the 400 speed flavor
its a great film and likes being
over exposed a little/
speaking of that, i'd also expose your film
at a lower iso and process accordingly
sounds like a fun project !! and its great you have a lot of
time to plan ... and expose film in similar situations /
good luck !
john

Jarin Blaschke · Nov 28, 2017

To answer your question, it seems that significant factors are:

Will you use filters?

What is your intended final print size?

Are you ok with a degree of apparent grain?

Do you like portraits with shallow depth of field?

In my case:
I shoot 8x10, using HP5 for portraits, but FP4 for everything else. I use filters most of the time, with any subject. If I’m going to shoot large format, I prefer grainless images, so with my very sharp but somewhat grainy developer (pyro), that limits me to 4x enlargement in FP4, maybe 3x with HP5 to allow for occasional contrast (and thus grain) expansion. I don’t yet need portraits bigger than 20x24, so I’m covered. I shoot portraits between f/8 and f/16, tops, often moody through a strong green filter whenever light levels allow. So far, portraits have landed in the 1/4 to 1/15 sec range, which works since they’re not in motion ( I have a mamiya for that).

J

trendland · Nov 28, 2017

Tim Stapp said:
Recent 4x5 convert. I've been learning on Arista EDU Ultra 200 and Ilford HP5+. I develop in XTOL rotary processed in JOBO CPE2+.

I have an upcoming portrait shoot in August 2019 of steam traction engines and their owners/operators/caretakers.

My question is: Ilford HP5+ or FP4+ ?

To shoot industrial in bw you might have a focus on resolution.If your shooting will be outdoor I would give you the advice to shot Delta 100.
If it goes to shot portraits your focus is better to tonals (Delta 100 is superior to both) But you might have a try with Fp4 if this is your favourite film.
The more relevant issue might be the lighting within the szene you shot.
Have a try with avaible light and push Hp5 a bit - the owners wouln't be happy with more grainy results because they are normal business men.
You might try to shot artists and rock bands in the future - because then everything is allowed.
Here I have a nice example of a portrait (from an upcoming band)
with Rollei Retro 80s at ISO 20 (E.I.) Ilford
Perceptol give me such kind of (relative) sharpness but much more smaller grain characteristis.The scan is not able to show.

with regards

trendland · Nov 28, 2017

Tim Stapp said:
Given that I specified Ilford products, why suggest the Kodak??? My local supplier (I prefer to purchase through Norman Camera) only supplies Ilford products.

There will be over 50 possible "portraits" over a 4 day span. I'm looking for the most detail in the black steam traction engines more so than the skin tones of the people. The traction engines are the subject. The caretakers are an afterthought.

Also, please define "dramatic."

Oh sorry - from fast reading I did't read this here. Yes but I absolute agree with you.As I also mentioned above : Pls. :
No experiments to comercial clients!
To industrial shoots it is a need to dokumentare the technology - shoots of the owners need a type of style we all know as business portraits.
To have nice shots with strange grain little unsharp pictures from slow speed in
exposure time - I love such artist subject (better saying - sometimes) but here it might be forbitten.

with regards

PS : By the time the clients may be in conflict from digital shots because of
high resolution.
And your task is to show : "My workflow
(4 x 5) as you mentioned is much more
better from details.
So it is a NO GO with Rodinal.
From same reason I would prefer Fp4
(fine grain + exiting tonals)
Not to forget Delta100....As I sayd ..

jspillane · Nov 28, 2017

Both are good. If you are committing to a large shoot and want to standardize, I think it's worth shooting a test on the same subject and making contact prints of the resulting negs. It's the only way you can really make a decision.

Personally, if 4x5 on a tripod I almost always shoot Foma 100 at ISO 50. I'm already working slow, I love the way the film looks, and it is less than half the price per sheet vs Ilford. If I need to shoot exposures longer than 1/2 a second, I bump up to HP5+ (reciprocity characteristics of Foma films are truly terrible).

In MF, FP4+ is my favorite film, but largely because I am often working handheld and Foma 100@50 starts to become a battle (and the price gap is much lower). In 4x5, I think the advantages of a 'mid speed' film like FP4+ are less apparent.

Personally, I am not a fan of the Delta range although I know many would advocate for them.

Jarin Blaschke · Nov 28, 2017

He didn't mention clients at all, so why clip wings before he begins? Even if there is a 'client' you need to at least take small risks, otherwise you don't distinguish your work and there is less reason to hire you. A topic for another thread...

J

trendland · Nov 28, 2017

Jarin Blaschke said:
He didn't mention clients at all, so why clip wings before he begins? Even if there is a 'client' you need to at least take small risks, otherwise you don't distinguish your work and there is less reason to hire you. A topic for another thread...

J

Oh sorry - I understand the OP in regard of a comercial shooting - otherwise I personaly wouldn't worry about the special issues coming from different emissions.
I also would try some other films to experimental use.
with regards

Arklatexian · Nov 28, 2017

Tim Stapp said:
Recent 4x5 convert. I've been learning on Arista EDU Ultra 200 and Ilford HP5+. I develop in XTOL rotary processed in JOBO CPE2+.

I have an upcoming portrait shoot in August 2019 of steam traction engines and their owners/operators/caretakers.

My question is: Ilford HP5+ or FP4+ ?

Your use of the term "portrait" tells me that you may have shot pictures of railroad locomotives in the past. I would think that you would use similar techniques on the steam tractors. You did not say if the photographs will be of static displays or of moving equipment. The choice of one or the other would, perhaps, depend on that though either one would probably do well in 4x5........Regards and have fun....

adelorenzo · Nov 28, 2017

I've been working 3 years on a large format outdoor environmental portrait project with my 4x5 using Ilford films. I shot a good chunk of my subjects on FP4 but even on a sunny day I'm usually trying to find some open shade or something to kill the harsh light. That meant lots of shots were almost wide open (f/6.7 or maybe f/8 if I was lucky) and taken at 1/60 or even 1/30. You hope like hell to get the eyes in focus and the person is reasonably still so the image is sharp enough. I got caught out with low light a few times and basically had to shoot wide open at 1/30 and deal with thin negatives.

I used HP5 for when I expected lower light conditions but in the future I plan on sticking to HP5 for all portraits. Those extra two stops can come in handy.

adelorenzo · Nov 28, 2017

Another thought: If you are shooting vehicles and their owners you will likely need/want more depth of field to get them both in reasonable focus. That seems to me that you'd really want to consider Hp5 to allow for stopping the lens down more.

Sirius Glass · Nov 28, 2017

Ron789 said:
For this subject I would go for Tri-X in Rodinal. That will give a more "dramatic" image.

Kodak does not make Tri-X 400 in 4"x5".

Sirius Glass · Nov 28, 2017

I prefer 400 speed film. Use FP4+ for finer grain and less depth of field; use HP5+ for coarser grain and greater depth of field.

Ron789 · Nov 28, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
Kodak does not make Tri-X 400 in 4"x5".

Did I Say Tri-X 400? In 4x5 Tri-X comes as 320.

Sirius Glass · Nov 28, 2017

Ron789 said:
Did I Say Tri-X 400? In 4x5 Tri-X comes as 320.

But it is not exactly the same.

Ron789 · Nov 28, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
But it is not exactly the same.

No it's not.
Did I say it is the same?
Though not exactly the same, the main characteristics are very similar. An "S-shaped" density curve, thereby being really good at maintaining details in the low and high tones while giving strong contrast in the mid tomes. That's why I think this is a good film for this subject.

mrosenlof · Nov 28, 2017

I do practically all of my large format work on HP5+. I shoot it at 200. LF means small apertures, the extra speed over FP4 is nice to have.

Ian Grant · Nov 29, 2017

Personally in this instance I'd shoot HP5, and it'll give excellent results in Xtol, I don't know what camera you intend to use but I work hand held with a Super Graphic or Crown Graphic when tripods aren't permitted and it's practical with HP5 but not FP4 or Delta 100.

I prefer using a slower film, in my case Delta 100 when using a tripod however for best sharpness operator & machine (if that's what you want) you'll need to work at f22 and that could lead to slow shutter speeds with a100 ISO film if the weather's dull, with HP5 you should be able to work 1/60 or faster and f16 or better still f22.

Ian

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