Unusual Cuts on 35mm Film Edge

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For years I have wondered what machine made these crescent cuts into sides of 35mm at a distance of 1 frame per cut and what was the point of this?
Has anyone here worked in a lab which made these cuts to film? please educate me on what this was all about!
 

ambaker

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Was the film cut this way from the factory, or did it appear after processing?


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Stephen Frizza
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it was done by labs in the 1980's but apart from this i know nothing else about it.
 

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It was used by automated printing equipment to indicate a "do not print" on that frame. If a frame was obviously defective, these cuts were made to prevent printing of blank or seriously defective frames.

PE
 

railwayman3

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It was used by automated printing equipment to indicate a "do not print" on that frame. If a frame was obviously defective, these cuts were made to prevent printing of blank or seriously defective frames.

PE

I've seen it lots of times against every frame on my film (when all the frames were printable) when I used develop-and print services back in the 80's. I assumed at the time it was used for centering the frames in the automated printer ?
 

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Any 35mm film I have sent to Clark Color Labs/York Photo, even up to the present, comes back with those notches in the side, even if I do not receive prints.
 

Photo Engineer

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Well, there are those that disagree with me. So...

All I can say is that if I have over or under exposed frames, or blurry frames, I have that notch. On other frames I do not. So, maybe our prints at KP were part of an experimental program or something else. I cannot say. None of my good frames have the notch (that I have found so far). On some earlier negatives, I have found small holes punched into the edge where these notches would go.

So, who knows nowdays? That is what I was told back then, and I have no "good" frames without notches to dispute it.

For those who guess it was autoadvance, well, on my negs it was too irregular to be that.

Let's ask Steve if the notches are there on good frames. All we saw were bad frames.

PE
 

railwayman3

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I wouldn't dare disagree with PE on any matter photographic..... :smile:

But I'm looking at a full film length of 35mm negs from 2006 where the crescent cutouts are exactly in the centre of every frame, including blanks. Very odd...

Maybe different processing labs or machines used different ways of coding? In my own experience (and so far as I recall without checking every film) it was cutouts on every frame or not at all ; the lab I've used for the past few years has never used the cutouts.
 
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Stephen Frizza
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the film with exposed frames which are good all have these notches. it runs the entire length of the film and is located directly at the mid point of exposed film frame. I really want to know what machine put these cuts in the film, when it was invented and why. my only clue is that the film also has those bulk lab bar-codes used to splice hundreds of rolls together attached at the starting edge indicating these films were spliced together and bulk processed.
 
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Stephen Frizza
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On a separate note P.E. I think you are right about there once being a system of cutting notches indicating good and bad frames.I have seen a system here where all the bad frames were indicated by a triangle cut on the sprocket.
 

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There was also the paper tape glue on system that EK used in the early days of scanning. Or have I gotten that wrong Fred?

PE
 

eng1er

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Could it be that negatives are coming back from some labs with notches on every frame because they are not using the go/no go system PE describes and it is either malfunctioning or set-up incorrectly? If that were the case the lab would have no need for the notches to be in the correct place. Current operators could even unaware of the system if they don't have in-depth knowledge of the equipment they're running.
 

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There was also the paper tape glue on system that EK used in the early days of scanning. Or have I gotten that wrong Fred?

PE


The paper tape system was used for reprints with short strips of 35mm film making it possible to feed them through an automatic printer.
 

wblynch

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I have many from the 1980s that have a notch on the last frame per 4-frame strip. I thought it was an indication for the film cutter.

The paper or plastic tape is a misery to get off these many years later and frequently the glue migrated into the frame, ruining some nice photos. I wish I knew a good way to get that glue off.
 
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Stephen Frizza
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Prof_Pixel you are spot on thank you so much for the link to that patent this is exactly what causes those punches and it explains why. many thanks for giving me all the info i could ever need on these notches.
 

Mr Bill

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I've spent time in large-scale finishing operations, and have seen more than one punch system. So it just depends on the exact system in use where your film is processed.

In Stephen's attached image, the spacing is obviously different, so it seems most likely related to frame positioning rather than just a print/no print instruction.

The punch systems have a number of downsides, not the least of which is the possiblility of leaving bits of debris hanging on the cut edge. This stuff was just waiting for the opportunity to break off, especially when the "feeler" bar rubs against it. Another issue is that a badly placed punch can't be redone.

At various times, my employer used commercial punch systems to mark frames to be printed, as well as establishing where to center the frame. (The long-roll film was "edited" on a different station, which the operator could run as fast as they wanted. Then the film would be loaded onto an automatic-advance printer which could do preset operations on finding each notch.)

There were other punch systems that would do inboard punches, Although these needed optical sensors, it was possible to punch some sort of dot array with more elaborate codes.

We eventually went to a system using "start" notches, only, then the system tracked itself by counting sprocket holes. This nearly eliminated the issue with any loose debris on the punched area. But such a system was not feasable until microcomputers or controllers went mainstream. But it allowed the editing system to call out specific print sizes (on automated package printers) along with fine adjustments in film positioning, as well as the ability to make editing changes.

When mini-lab machines became equipped with on-board scanners, the need for punches largely went away. So edge-punched film is now something of an historic artifact, from a specific time window in photofinishing history.
 

stefan4u

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When I worked at a commercial processing Lab in the 80`s, the next step after developing the spools/cassettes of films (approx. 100 -200 135 films ,spiced together) was putting that roll on the „Notcher“.

That Notcher marked the exact middle of the frame for the next step, the printing machines. Normally working well, but at dark scenes, pictures taken with flashlight, or blank negatives it gave sometimes problems… At it`s best only wrong printed pictures, at it`s most bad wrong cutted negatives. At the last station, when pictures and negatives came finally together and the rolls are cutted, the negative cutter relayed to hat mark too…
Later on the Notching machines have been improved a lot, concerning mismarking the middle of a frame..

Regards stefan
 

railwayman3

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Just received back a couple of processed and mounted 35mm E6 films; on opening the plastic mounts of two dud slides, there is a semi-circular notch in the exact centre of each frame of film, so the system also seems to be used for some automatic slide-mounting machines.
There is splicing tape on the leader and end of the film where it has been joined to the next roll, so obviously also a continuous processing machine in use, rather than dip-and-dunk tanks.
 

DanielStone

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Just received back a couple of processed and mounted 35mm E6 films; on opening the plastic mounts of two dud slides, there is a semi-circular notch in the exact centre of each frame of film, so the system also seems to be used for some automatic slide-mounting machines.
There is splicing tape on the leader and end of the film where it has been joined to the next roll, so obviously also a continuous processing machine in use, rather than dip-and-dunk tanks.

Where did you send your film? I believe some of the larger-scale E-6 labs like Dwayne's use/used the cinema-style processors geared/modified for LARGE scale E-6 processing. I could be wrong about Dwaynes though, but IIRC, their Kodachrome machine was this type of design.

-Dan
 

railwayman3

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Where did you send your film? I believe some of the larger-scale E-6 labs like Dwayne's use/used the cinema-style processors geared/modified for LARGE scale E-6 processing. I could be wrong about Dwaynes though, but IIRC, their Kodachrome machine was this type of design.

-Dan

I'm in the UK and the films were own brand "Boots Colour Slide" (Boots is a large UK pharmacy and general store group, the film is from Fuji).

The film is actually now discontinued but the mailers go to an address which is a branch of Ce-We, a big German and European photo and digital processors. Interestingly, the writing on the packing of the finished slides is in German, and I get the feeling that all the E6 is shipped to Germany for processing....would make sense if all their E6 work were centrailised in one place, I can't see the demand in any one country supporting a large-scale continuous processor.
 
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