Unknown stain on B&W negative

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

I've developed my latest roll as usual, and found the last 2 frames had something that looks like drying marks on them, except I was not able to wipe them off regardless of what I tried. I even tried re-soaking the frame in distilled water and photoflo again to try, but the stain is still there. Does anyone have any idea what these are and how it happened? I use the Ilford method (like in their Youtube video) to develop. At the end I soak the film in distilled water with Photoflo for about 2 minutes, mixing occasionally.

https://i.ibb.co/1GtWwdV/IMG-0037.jpg

pentaxuser · May 13, 2020

I can only see one frame in your attachment - a picture of flowers in a glass vase. Can you describe where the drying mark is. I cannot see any obvious drying marks

Thanks

pentaxuser

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

To the left side of the vase on the negative, look closer. There's a huge drying mark (?)

pentaxuser · May 13, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
To the left side of the vase on the negative, look closer. There's a huge drying mark (?)

Is it the thin black line which is almost half way between the top of the edge of the vase and runs at a small angle so by three quarters of the way down it is closer to the vase that the edge of the negative?

If it is this line then on the negative it looks black? So when you look at the negative the mark is black? If so then I cannot recall seeing any drying marks that were black on my negatives. On the few occasions I have had drying marks they are much lighter than this and could be washed off. My marks were the result of drying the film on heat that was too intense and the water drips dried on the film before it had time to run off

When you look and feel the mark does it seem to be on top of the surface or does it seem part of the negative as if it is under the surface?

You mentioned two frames.I think these two frames are next to each other,. Yes? Is the mark any clearer on the second negative?

Thanks

pentaxuser

grain elevator · May 13, 2020

As you've tried to wash it off, I suppose it's not a drying mark (although it could be something mostly insoluble). My suspicion is on uneven development - did you by any chance use a strong developer with short time, and maybe not agitate right away or take a while to pour it in? Or did the film get wet in this place before developing?

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

Here's the other frame: https://i.ibb.co/55byfGQ/IMG-0036.jpg. Towards the top of her head, left side. I will check to see if I can tell whether it's on the negative or part of it.

As for the development process, I do my usual: Ilfotec DD-X, 9m30s, agitating for 10 seconds every minute. I didn't take too long to pour it in. I use Hewes reels in a Paterson tank. I hope this helps.

jeffreyg · May 13, 2020

Too much Photoflo concentrate in the solution? I use only a few drops in 20 oz of distilled water. Originally I used the directed amount and occasionally would get what appeared to be drying marks. I cut back to much less concentrate and the film dried just fine and no marks. It may be too late for those frames.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://www.sculptureandphotography.com/

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

I used a bit less than 1ml inside 400ml of water. Splash it into the water using a syringe and the side of the tank to avoid bubbles. I still got a lot of bubbles regardless. Maybe I should use even less? Kodak says 1:200. I used 1:400. Still new to this but you may be right.

jeffreyg · May 13, 2020

Gabriel
1ml = 20 drops Try 3 to 5 drops. Photoflo is a wetting agent that some think is not necessary. As I mentioned I use only a few drops and eliminated that problem.

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

Will definitely try that next time. Thanks.

pentaxuser · May 13, 2020

Gabriel, clearly the others can see exactly where these marks are whereas I cannot identify them at all To save me the expense of visiting an optician is it possible to put an arrow against both negatives If might be easier and just as good to show the marks by reversing the negative so it appears as a print

Can you say what the colour of the drying mark is on each negative? I have never heard of a few more drops of Photoflo than is required causing drying marks

As you call it Photoflo I assume this is the Kodak product and the Kodak recommended dilution is 1:200 so 1ml Photoflo to 200ml of water. In 400ml of water this is 2ml which is double what you use so I am at a loss to work out how using 50% of what Kodak recommends results in this problem

I seriously wonder also if each of us replying is seeing something different

pentaxuser

koraks · May 13, 2020

Did you start agitating within a few seconds after pouring in the developer and did you agitate for a minimum of 30 seconds at the start of development?
This looks like a flow mark caused by insufficient agitation at the onset of development.
An alternative cause might be the film sticking to itself if it wasn't rolled onto the reel properly, but that usually looks more dramatic.

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

@pentaxuser here is the photo, I highlighted the mark in red.

@koraks I agitated as Ilford instructs: 10 seconds at the beginning of each minute, including the first one. I doubt the film stuck onto itself because this was towards the end of the reel and I always check very carefully including when I take it out of the tank.

pentaxuser · May 13, 2020

Thanks Gabriel I can see what appears to be two red lines which seem to meet much lower down her face but I am assuming that the mark is the white one with a small dark spot in its middle and this is near the top of her forehead close to where her forehead meets her hairline

If it is this one then on a print the mark should appear as a dark spot with a white centre. There is a kind of a white line that runs down the left side of her hair but it is difficult to work out if this is a dark coloured streak in her hair that she or her hairdresser has put there

Either way this may not be the best negative to identify the problem from but nothing about this mark suggests a Photoflo problem to me when you haven't even used as much Photoflo as Kodak recommends so I fail to see how excess Photoflo can be the cause

pentaxuser

removed account4 · May 13, 2020

jeffreyg said:
Gabriel
1ml = 20 drops Try 3 to 5 drops. Photoflo is a wetting agent that some think is not necessary. As I mentioned I use only a few drops and eliminated that problem.

+1 !
one of the biggest mistakes people make is putting too much photo flo ...
all you need is a couple of drops. I never understood why the photo flo bottle suggests differently..

have fun !
John

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

It might be that you've still not fully identified the mark. It goes all across my red marking, straight in the middle of it as a black line. Regardless, I will try to use less Photoflo next time because two drops should be enough. But I agree with you, I also doubt this is caused by Kodak Photoflo

Gabriel Aszalos · May 13, 2020

If you think I put a lot of Photoflo, check out this guy Look at minute 41:45

removed account4 · May 13, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
If you think I put a lot of Photoflo, check out this guy Look at minute 41:45

I could barely take it ! LOL

MattKing · May 13, 2020

If you hold up the negatives so that the light reflects off the surfaces, can you see the marks on the surface? That is how drying marks present themselves - as something on the surface of the negative.
The effectiveness of Photoflo will vary with different qualities of water. Is your water quite hard? With some water, you need to vary the dilution.
For the water here, I get good results with Photoflo mixed accurately to 1:200, using this method which makes use of some isopropyl alcohol as well: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/
Of course, in these strange times, obtaining isopropyl alcohol can be a bit of a challenge.
To my mind, this looks more like either a light leak or a stress mark due to inadvertent handling of the negative (most likely when loading the reel).

koraks · May 13, 2020

Well, one more thing I can think of is the film being pinched so that it folded a bit. This often emerges as little (or big) crescent shaped forms with a soft outline. A bit more common on 120 film, but it can happen with 35mm as well.

Does Ilford really state only 10 seconds initial agitation? That surprises me. I thought they specified 1 minute continuous agitation followed by 10 seconds per minute. It's been a while since I read about it though.

Sirius Glass · May 13, 2020

As previously pointed out, follow the mixing directions exactly for PhoFlo and only vary if necessary. 1:200 means 5ml PhotoFlo to 1 liter of water.

Andrew O'Neill · May 13, 2020

Gabriel Aszalos said:
If you think I put a lot of Photoflo, check out this guy Look at minute 41:45

That's "a little splash"?? I only stick in about 10 drops for one roll of 35mm film. I got strange drying marks on the base side of HP5 sheet film several years ago, because I used way too much photoflo (actually I use Fuji's product, Drywell but same stuff).

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