Uniroller processing, pre-wash, etc and agitation (Kodak vs. Ilford)

JWMster · Sep 29, 2017

I working to figure how to use a Uniroller for development for B&W 35mm and 120. I've read that pre-wash can result in uneven development - but only after some signs of this occurred. With the dark coating on 120, a pre-wash had given me confidence of the opposite actually, but maybe that's only relevant to hand-agitation.

I'm also beginning to fine read about agitation and notice the difference between defaults for Kodak (1X per every 30 seconds) and Ilford (1X per every 60 seconds) where 1X refers to one cycle, not necessarily just one inversion. I'm also noticing preferences for 30-seconds continuous initially by rotation followed by subsequent cycles strictly of inversion... where the two are not combined but separated in this way. Does all this make a difference?

So with the Uniroller, I guess the trick is to systematically debug the problem. But I guess I'm thinking more about an integration of techniques because I'm not sure what the best approach is. My initial corrective was to drop the Uniroller as an exclusive agitation and switch to the highly dilute method Ansel Adams lays out in the Negative: 30-seconds of rotation initially followed every 3-minutes with 2 inversions and 2 rotations. Uniroller was then used for the subsequent baths. This produced good results, but perhaps the pre-wash was the issue? 'cause I still got it.

Love to hear advice from those with more experience in these things. Thanks!

darkroommike · Sep 29, 2017

I have used a Uniroller with their motor base for film processing for almost 30 years and used rotary processors including the original King Concept for years before that. You do not need a prerinse/presoak but if you still want to use a presoak use a presoak of at least 5 minutes, that will even things out. Hey it's on a roller base, it adds a little time but no extra effort. I usually use the time to make notes on processing or other bookwork. Your presoak will come out of the tank either with pretty colors or plain depending on the dyes used in the AH layer. And it doesn't mater, the developer and subsequent steps will neutralize and wash off the dyes just fine (almost like the film + process was intended to work that way--and it was).

BTW the Unicolor Film Drum II manual states no prerinse for black and white. Do you have a copy? Matt King posted the chemistry amounts needed to cover the film on reels a while back on APUG. Search Unicolor and user name MattKing (run together). I have a (not awful) photocopy of the manual and am willing to scan it if you need it, but not today.

JWMster · Sep 29, 2017

Darkrooommike: Thanks! No haven't seen Matt King's chemistry amounts.

In a related thought, I've also wondered whether a tank "full" to same level as used in hand agitation would result in uneven development due to resistance slowing/stopping the reels inside from rotating with the tank. I've been using Paterson tanks - a 2 x 120 sleeved in PVC to make it longer, and a 3 x120 which stays on fine, but the thought that interior reel rotation could be offset by fluid resistance 'caused me some ponderings. So a lesser amount of Developer might be a good idea.

Also thought at first to replace these with a Jobo 1500 or 2500 tank, but not sure I understand that system sufficiently without advice. But I've seen that a lot of folks using Uniroller's base this way are also using Jobo tanks. Don't know much about Uniroller tanks, but believe they can still be found on ebay.

I'll search. Thanks for your reply!

btaylor · Sep 29, 2017

I have used the Uniroller and Unicolor film drum system since the '80s. The film drum is quite a nice unit, especially for color (maintains temperature), but I use it for all my roll film. It uses less chemistry and is great for one-shot use because the quantity of developer is much less that a regular tank. Just follow the Unicolor instructions and reduce standard developing times by 15%. I have never had any problems using this method.

JWMster · Sep 29, 2017

btaylor: I have the Uniroller. And now the instructions. Question is what sort of film drum are we talking about? Seem to be a lot of different Unicolor tanks out there. And if you do find one, what reels do you use in it? I have a ton of Paterson compatible (okay 4... AP reels which are very easy to load 35mm and 120 films. Appreciate the encouragement! Thanks!

MattKing · Sep 29, 2017

The Unicolor tanks took Unicolor reels - not Paterson reels.
A long time ago I was able to share the instructions for the Unicolor tanks and reels because I was given a set, complete with instructions. I don't have them any more.
For me, the AP reels are a lot easier to use than the Unicolor reels.
As mentioned elsewhere, I've gravitated to using the 1 litre (3 x 35mm) Paterson tanks. I pre-rinse for 3 minutes on the Uniroller. I then use 1 litre of replenished developer (HC-110 in my case) with just the first 30 seconds on the Uniroller. From then on, I agitate 5 seconds for every 30 seconds using swirling hand inversion.
The rest of the process (stop bath, fixer 1, fixer 2, rinse, HCA) is done on the Uniroller with 600 ml of solution.
The only reason I'm not using the Uniroller for the entire developing step is that I often load two 120 rolls on the same AP reel, and I found that the films were moving around inside the reel when I used rotary agitation throughout development, resulting sometimes in overlapping and therefore undeveloped film. I assume that is because the film is more slippery in the developer than in the other solutions.
If I were to use rotary agitation throughout, I would need to adjust my developing times.
I could probably obtain the same results by using continuous hand inversion agitation for the first 30 seconds.

MattKing · Sep 29, 2017

With respect to the differences between Kodak recommendations and Ilford recommendations for hand agitation, I would suggest that as long as you choose a reasonably similar approach and stick to it, those difference won't matter. It is important however that your agitation be sufficiently vigorous and sufficiently randomized in pattern. The developer needs to tumble and gurgle and swirl when it falls through the reels.
In addition, the first few seconds are critical when it comes to issues of evenness - thus my desire to use 30 seconds of rotary agitation right at the beginning.

darkroommike · Sep 29, 2017

Here's the manual for the Film Drum II.

JWMster · Sep 29, 2017

Darkroommike: Wow. THanks for the help. I'd googled some of these things but this is a much better version. Quick search of ebay turned up a few Unicolor tanks - mostly for parts, and some random 120 reels. One of the variables I think worth eliminating is the soft top of the Paterson tank, and the funnel side leakage. If I can keep the chemistry in with the reels rather than sloshing into the lid area, then the Uniroller might work more consistently and the fluid with the film would remain a definable quantity. Currently exploring other alternatives, including a different roller system. Paterson tank really don't seem as suited to depending entirely on a Uniroller for agitation. While mine don't leak into the sink per se, it's the flow back and forth between the dark part of the container and the daylight part that I find problematic and without the "good" kind of randomness some folks like to discuss with respect to the process.

Matt: Helpful as well. Yes, I use the AP reels with the thick/wide tabs for loading and they work great. Your method does work and I used it last weekend. Looking to move towards the next step from here. Have not been tempted to try to 120 rolls on one reel. And thanks for the feedback on the agitation - Kodak vs. Ilford. For me, Ilford's is managable. Kodak... hmmm... drives me to want to use a roller MORE not less.

Thanks! I will continue to post my progress to this thread until I get this thing debugged just as a record for whomever might come along later.

MattKing · Sep 29, 2017

For me, the Paterson Super System 4 tanks seal a lot better if I "burp" the lid every time I seal them.
Much less leakage.
And for the rest, get one of those plastic trays that you put dish draining racks on beside your kitchen sink. I think I paid $1.25 for mine at the local thrift store, and I donated back the used draining rack that accompanied it.
My Uniroller sits on it, and any drips hit it as well.

darkroommike · Sep 30, 2017

The best feature of the Unicolor film drum is the piston permitting you to adjust the tank volume for exactly how many reels you are doing, the downsides are leaks, no new gaskets (I called PSI years ago and a very nice lady shipped me the last four remaining gaskets she had), and no the paper drum gaskets are not the same. The small center caps split right down the middle with old age, I think there is a 3d printer file to make new caps.

JWMster · Sep 30, 2017

Well... though I've investigated Jobo and Unicolor reels, what I have on hand is Paterson - in spades. Put it work with 2 rolls of Bergger Panchro 400 and 2 rolls of Kodak TMX-400. Used the large Paterson tank (5 rolls of 35mm, 3 rolls of 120) to do the duces together in 2 separate runs. Checked the total capacity - which turns out to be 2000 ML and measured all chems at 1000 ML which I've been using for my usual runs anyway. With Perceptol 1:2, and a temp of 20.5 C, I set time for 9 minutes 45 seconds. Results are drying now and look very good, but not examined to know whether I've cured the problem or not. For Developer agitation, I followed Matt's suggestion and used the stir stick for the 1st 30 seconds followed by my addition of 2 inversions, and then plopped it on the Uniroller for the balance of the time. Leakage with the Paterson is minimal. Will let you know once I have a chance to scan and examine the negs. This weekend (October 7th) is my daughter's wedding.... so it will be BUSY 'round these parts and I may not get a chance for a while. We'll see. Thanks for the help!

btaylor · Sep 30, 2017

Concerning the unavailable Unicolor Film Drum gasket, I found that the regular Unicolor developing tanks use the same gasket as the film drum. The tanks can be had for peanuts on eBay and they usually come with a reel so that's a nice extra.

I also had the rubber center cap split, I would love to find out how to have a couple of replacements printed. Any leads to have this done?

I had the piston seal disintegrate on my original. I ended up buying a couple of the complete drums on eBay to collect enough bits to keep my system operational, they cost very little as few people know much about them.

The reason I went to all the trouble is because I find the system is efficient, compact and super easy to use for b&w and color film processing. There are no agitation issues, reduce standard developer time by 15%, set the timer and forget about it. The amount of chemistry needed is minimal. It can process up to 6 35mm reels or 4 120 reels at the same time, or any quantity or combination because of the adjustable piston. It is insulated to hold temperature for color processing without a water bath.

When I bought mine back in the '80s I couldn't afford something slick like a Jobo. It fit the bill as a reasonable substitute, and now that I could buy a Jobo I have no reason to.

JWMster · Sep 30, 2017

Most of what I see on ebay for the Unicolor Film Drum is incomplete. Caps are missing, reels are missing, etc. Going down this road looks to be a long-term collection process at this juncture. May do it... but with all the film Kickstarter stuff going on, I'm a bit surprised no one has thought to do the Unicolor tanks.

Hope I'll be sufficiently pleased with what looks to be coming out of the Paterson tank that this can comfortably move to my back burner. Have in on the light table and an ambition to run it through this evening if I can. Four rolls. Fair amount of DSLR scanning ahead!
FWIW, the Bergger Panchro 400 curls... something the TMAX thankfully does not. One strike against the BP400. Will also be interesting to see the side by side comparison between the TMAX and BP400 from the same location today.

MattKing · Oct 1, 2017

JWMster said:
I followed Matt's suggestion and used the stir stick for the 1st 30 seconds

I think you may have misunderstood my suggestion!
I use the Uniroller base for the first 30 seconds of development.
I use intermittent hand agitation (inversion with tumbling, gurgling and swirl) for the rest of the development time.

JWMster · Oct 1, 2017

Matt: THank you for your follow-up and care. No, actually I think I did understand your suggestion in its entirety. I have done that and it works. It's just that I'm not ready to "give up" on the Uniroller for Development, and have since parsed the suggestion to see whether I couldn't make the agitation AFTER the 1st 30 seconds conform to using the Uniroller for the rest. Gives me time to mix additional chemistry, clean-up, and get more done.... but worth it only if the negatives are where I want them to be.

Gonna have to actually do some formal testing with both approaches to see which results in more consistent, even negatives of the same scenes, test shots, etc. using 2 film backs. Haven't done that. While I'm very comfortable with hand agitation, I haven't really used the Uniroller more than 3 times, and may not have reached the point of giving it a fair shake. Over-all, negatives are getting better and I am happy to manage it with conventional developers - Perceptol mostly.

bvy · Oct 1, 2017

Interesting. I have the auto-reversing Uniroller motor base. I only have the paper drums but tried to adapt them to develop film -- Paterson reels directly in drum, stainless reels in stainless tank inside drum, etc. In all these cases, I got bad laminar flow marks on the edges (black and white 120). Granted this was a "hack." Using a small tank upright inside a large paper drum gives me perfectly even development however:
youtu.be/cU7ngCoh7lU

Are the film drums and reels engineered in such a way to alleviate the problem of flow marks? I was interested to see in Matt's instructions that they made an adaptor for stainless steel reels...

JWMster · Oct 1, 2017

Attributes of my problem: IF after development, you capture the negative and take it into post processing (Capture One) and aren't careful, you begin to see effects where it looks as though there is a picture in a picture - as if there is a square vignette but in reverse where the center received more development than the edges of the frame. This is almost as though there were a mask on the film! and calls for a lot more investigation of the gear, negative, etc. All in, since there is no such thing, something ain't right - I"m just not sure what, and in classic form, figured the likely culprit is me.

BVY: Your question is a good one. I like your implemented "hack". You should tell more about your hack, 'cause it might be very useful. Thanks!

FWIW, I'd actually watched that youtube. Have to say that I'm increasingly coming to believe that the key to agitation - and perhaps more noticable with 120 than 35 where film width is smaller - is the verticle inversion. Your "hack" addresses this directly. Rolling agitation with 120 using my existing equipment may have less internal rolling than the drum exterior shows, and therefore could result in the film sitting in the bath more than it appears. I tried to cure this with less chemistry in the container.

Matt has cured it by dropping machine agitation from the Developer step, and I'm tempted to do the same. But still have this project in mind to find a resolution that works... on the cheap. Love to find one that would work both for 35mm and 120 and multiple reels of film, but not there yet. Gonna have to do a lot more study to see what I really need to do.

MattKing · Oct 1, 2017

Skip:
I get excellent results when I use my roller processor for a single 120 roll. Just as I get even and excellent results when I use the Uniroller for the first 30 seconds of the development.
The only reason I don't use the Uniroller for the entire development time is that I like to retain the option of loading two 120 rolls on a single reel, and I get overlapping when I do that (I'm not able to effectively use the "tape between two rolls" method.
Understand though that although I do scan rolls of film, my primary process is optical printing.
I expect that your problem is software or scanner related.

JWMster · Oct 2, 2017

Matt: I suspect you are absolutely right and that's likely one of the real possibilities I've got to run down and determine whether that's the case or not. Classic case of expecting problem B when it could be problem C... but still the same ultimate cause (my technique). Going to send a couple of negatives out for commercial scanning just to make sure (and 'cause I DO like the shots that much). Thanks for the suggestion.... as always.

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