Went to Unique Photo today with a lens to trade. They sell the lens new for $849- but offered me $150 for a like new lens. B&H gave me $279 for the same lens.
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Unique Photo Trade-In values suck
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The UK retail model was always 100% mark up on new gear, plus VAT, currently running at 20%. Since the internet I suspect those margins are way down. The B&H offer seems about right.
I doubt that there is a 100% markup on new gear anywhere nowadays. As for used, yes, a 100% markup would be the target + or - depending on the market for a particular piece, and of course, condition.
For wholesaling a lens (i.e. selling it to a retailer), comparing it to the price of a new one isn't a valid comparison. The comparison to make would be to the price of a similar condition used one, then take at least 1/2 of that, in most cases.
Based on B&H's offer, the other price does seem quite low, however.
For wholesaling a lens (i.e. selling it to a retailer), comparing it to the price of a new one isn't a valid comparison. The comparison to make would be to the price of a similar condition used one, then take at least 1/2 of that, in most cases.
Based on B&H's offer, the other price does seem quite low, however.
Also depends how quick the shop can turnover the secondhand gear they're buying. A friend sold an FM3 to a shop last year, and they offered him £295. Admittedly he'd bought it new and used it twice before going digital, but even so I thought he might get that price via ebay, not from a retailer. I can only guess they had a buyer lined up who would pay their margin for an exception condition FM3.
If he'd turned up with an AE-1 he might have been looking at beer money only.
No equipment has an intrinsic value, things are "worth" what you can get for them and how desperate the vendor is to sell them at the time, if you paid $100,000 for a Rolls Royce and the maximum anyone offered for it was $1000 that's what its worth, I learned this from bitter experience.
I'm surprised you sold your Rolls Royce so cheaply, the profits from camera sales must have bbeen high
Joking apart the margins on new camera sales plummeted in the 70's & 80's and never returned to the 100% mark up level, but the OP is talking about selling second hand items to a dealer. That dealer has to finance his stock and unsold goods cost money in interest etc, some dealers as well have better infrastructure and reputation (and are much larger) and can turn items over faster.
In the UK it's better to sell as a commission sale through na dealer, that way the tax (VAT 20%) is on the commission only so far better for the buyer, it's better for the dealer as well because they've not had to pay before the items sold. The down side as a seller is you only get paid when the items sold but then you get a far better price. That's been my experience anyway.
It is supply and demand, I was amazed today when doing a Google search to see how many UK shops just sold analog cameras & film, many successfully. But I know one who's prices in his shop & on Ebay are way too high, but friends who jo him says he's been paying far too much for stock.
All shops /dealers have to make a living. the moral is sell to one who's turning over stock and check ot the best options, in the past for me it's been commission sales when through a store.
Ian
In the EU the dealer also must guarantee on the used product. The risk for this cost (resp. checking of the camera) also has to be taken into account. That is one reason rummage boxes exist.
Ordering a camera from a wholesaler is completely different from buying and selling a used camera.
But still there is my question: Where is the ethical issue here?
Ordering a camera from a wholesaler is completely different from buying and selling a used camera.
But still there is my question: Where is the ethical issue here?
The "market" these days is open and visible, and defined by Ebay. That Canon AE-1 mentioned above appears to be worth slightly less than beer money, and for a shop that expects to sell it, half that, or about $5, from what I see from actual Ebay sales. If you want to see what your "$849-new" lens is worth used, retail, it's a quick search there.
Current new price for my Cambo 4x5 is $1800. Mine cost me $150, and I can buy as many as I want for $150-200. New retail prices have virtually no concrete relationship to used prices, so that's a fantasy that's best not engaged in.
Current new price for my Cambo 4x5 is $1800. Mine cost me $150, and I can buy as many as I want for $150-200. New retail prices have virtually no concrete relationship to used prices, so that's a fantasy that's best not engaged in.
Is that so? There is Ebay and there is local market. And for the rest applies what Ben just said above.
OP
OP
OP
OP
Cheapest Buy it Now price was $429 which is $279 MORE than they offered. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262240381847?
Mate, so what's new??
Dealers trading second-hand equipment have been doing this since Nelson lost an eye. They are there to turn a profit, certainly not to line the pockets of hopeful customers with gold ducats. Around where I am, the re-sale markup is around 600%, and cash-in-hand trades are pitiful, and as you can imagine, emotions can run high when photographers consider their equipment to be valued much, much higher than the piddly offer from the gold-encrusted guy behind the counter. You know, some of the longest-standing photographic dealers in Australia have made their wealth this way and continue to do so.
I have not traded-in equipment for more than 20 years at a retail (shop-front) level. eBay is much more tolerant of what you are asking for, but the market out there will dictate how much people think they should pay, as opposed to how much want to get back in cold, hard cash.
I don't think the offer was unethical. There may be other reasons for the low offer. Maybe they've been sitting on a dozen of the same lens, for months, or years. Maybe they have a technician clean them, and bring them up to specs. Maybe they have new ones they'd rather move. You should also never expect the same price some private ebayer asks from a store. The store has overhead (rent/salaries/etc.) and may offer a warranty. Did you really expect them to offer you the amount they're going for on ebay?
OP
OP
I don't sell directly to another seller because I know they expect to make a profit, plus they have overhead to pay for, plus they consider how long the item will be inventory, plus they must hedge their bet in case of market fluctuation, plus... (ad infinitum). I only sell on eBay to people willing and able to pay fair market value.
The dealer also has to pay 20% V.A.T. in the U.K. on second hand equipment when he buys it and also when he sells it so that's 40% before he adds any mark up for profit (and the company I worked for used to guarantee used equipment for six months which was a potential loss too) that's why you get so little for used gear.I'm surprised you sold your Rolls Royce so cheaply, the profits from camera sales must have bbeen high
Joking apart the margins on new camera sales plummeted in the 70's & 80's and never returned to the 100% mark up level, but the OP is talking about selling second hand items to a dealer. That dealer has to finance his stock and unsold goods cost money in interest etc, some dealers as well have better infrastructure and reputation (and are much larger) and can turn items over faster.
In the UK it's better to sell as a commission sale through na dealer, that way the tax (VAT 20%) is on the commission only so far better for the buyer, it's better for the dealer as well because they've not had to pay before the items sold. The down side as a seller is you only get paid when the items sold but then you get a far better price. That's been my experience anyway.
It is supply and demand, I was amazed today when doing a Google search to see how many UK shops just sold analog cameras & film, many successfully. But I know one who's prices in his shop & on Ebay are way too high, but friends who jo him says he's been paying far too much for stock.
All shops /dealers have to make a living. the moral is sell to one who's turning over stock and check ot the best options, in the past for me it's been commission sales when through a store.
Ian
P.S The only time in my life I have ever travelled in Rolls Royces Ian was to weddings and funerals
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The dealer only would have to pay VAT on buying from a commercial seller and then would add up VAT on his margin, but not double the amount of VAT.
I can't think the UK being so different. Or I'm completely off track now. But VAT can be tricky.
I can't think the UK being so different. Or I'm completely off track now. But VAT can be tricky.
I never look at the buy it now pricing. I look at the sold listings. In the end as already mentioned, the market sets the price. It matters not what you paid for something, or how much you put into something fixing it up. You cannot get more than people will pay.
-More cameras than brains... Sadly it didn't take very many.
It's an offer. No one has to take it. If no one accepts the offer and they want to have lenses like that to sell, they will have to offer more.
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MattKing
Moderator
The only time that ethics would be involved would be if the store made a representation about their offer that was false.
Unique Photo only wanted the lens if they thought that they could make a profit on it.
Unique Photo only wanted the lens if they thought that they could make a profit on it.
The dealer also has to pay 20% V.A.T. in the U.K. on second hand equipment when he buys it and also when he sells it so that's 40% before he adds any mark up for profit (and the company I worked for used to guarantee used equipment for six months which was a potential loss too) that's why you get so little for used gear.
P.S The only time in my life I have ever travelled in Rolls Royces Ian was to weddings and funerals
If a UK dealer is buying from a member of the public there's no VAT involved, if they were buying from a company (or photographer) that was VAT registered then there is, and they can claim it back, in practice it's offset by the increased VAT on the eventual sale.
Ian
That's correct Ian, but I worked at a professional dealer where our prices didn't include V.A.T because about 90% of the customers were V.A.T rated and could claim it back.
That's correct Ian, but I worked at a professional dealer where our prices didn't include V.A.T because about 90% of the customers were pro's and V.A.T rated and could claim it back.
Anyone can ask anything they want. SOLD is truth, not "Buy it Now".
People who aren't in business have non-functional ideas such that if they got into business they wouldn't last long (and note that most new businesses fail, and do so quickly), so I have a serious problem with "ethical" arguments here coming from people who have never tried to make the business they're talking about work. That is: I don't pay a bit of attention to such baseless ranting.
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